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Post by paddy649 on Mar 22, 2019 9:53:30 GMT
I had an interesting situation come up in a game against my son last night. We were playing “winner stays on and invades” where we start with a historical battle and the winning army gets to invade against another random army of the same sort of period Anyway that is how we found King Porus, the wheels of his heavy chariots dripping with fresh Macedonian blood, fighting a Arabo-Aramaean army in the Desert.
As always this random battle was interesting with the Aramaeans losing an element to Elephants before their Bow and Blade engaged with some success. The Cavalry General engaged King Porus himself but rolled 1:6 and died ignominiously with Porus advancing impetuously to the edge of the desert (dunes) facing only Psloi and Camels - pah!
Now the bit I cannot work out and where Porus might have come undone. The Aramaeans PIP roll 2 - so one move with the dead general. 3-2 to Porus and so victory in sight for the Indians! BUT the Aramaeans in the Dunes had 2 units of Psloi and a unit of Camels. The Psloi can obviously move in a Group across the BG. The Camels don’t recognise Dunes as BG and so can also move in a group across what they consider GG.....:BUT can the Camels and the Psloi move across the Dunes together costing 2 PIP given the dead general. If so the Camels could hit King Porus as group vs single element, suck him into the Dunes BG, double overlapped for a -4 with the Camels unaffected in what they consider GG. So the combat factors would be 3:1 to the Cam with a QK to boot.....and at 3:2 to the Indians, killing Porus gave the Aramaeans the game.
So my questions:
Is the group move of Camels and Psloi legal? Two thoughts:
Yes - because the Camel element is not in BG and so apply GG group rules. The part of the group that consider Dunes BG is entirely Psloi. Plus this appears to be the Comon sense answer.
No - because the group is not entirely Psloi.
Also Camels QK knights and HCh act as Knights so are we correct in assuming that they QK HCh - I think so.
What does the jury think?
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Post by paddy649 on Mar 22, 2019 10:05:37 GMT
P.S. This is important as it is the first game that my boy may have out- thought and outplayed me and won legitimately - rather than me either taking the weakest army at playing rashly to give him a win to maintain the family dynamic. So big bragging rights rest on your decisions.
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Post by paulisper on Mar 22, 2019 10:55:21 GMT
I would say that it is a group move and yes, the HCh would have to conform to the group. Whether this actually pulls it into terrain would depend on the alignment of the group as it hits and the shape of the dunes. It may be that the Hch is still outside the BG at that point and thus not at -2.
P.
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Post by stevie on Mar 22, 2019 12:55:49 GMT
So my questions: Is the group move of Camels and Psloi legal? Two thoughts: Yes - because the Camel element is not in BG and so apply GG group rules. The part of the group that consider Dunes BG is entirely Psloi. Plus this appears to be the Comon sense answer. No - because the group is not entirely Psloi. Also Camels QK knights and HCh act as Knights so are we correct in assuming that they QK HCh - I think so. What does the jury think? Ooooo...this is a tricky one Paddy (but I do like puzzles).  Overall I agree with Paulisper. Here are the relevant rules:- Groups [8.10]: A group is a contiguous set of elements all facing in the same direction with each in both edge and corner-to-corner contact with another (see diagram 3a); or in at least corner-to-corner contact if part of a wheeling column (notice that it does not say “you can’t form a group in bad going”).Bad going movement [8.12]: A group move by road, or across bad (not rough) going, must be in or into a column unless entirely by Psiloi (again, it says moving, not forming, a group in bad going is limited).Camels [6.7]: Dunes and Oasis are BAD GOING except to elements of any type with camels. So what are we to make of it all? Groups can be formed in bad going... Psiloi are not affected by bad going... Camels are not affected by Dunes & Oasis... Therefore, as both treat Dunes & Oasis as if they weren’t there, then yes, they should be allowed to move as a group. (But remember there is no pursuit in or into bad going...see Pursuing [12.9].
And that Dunes & Oasis still affect PIP costs and Command Range) As for Cm ‘quick-killing’ Kn and HCh...well, both Kn and HCh have horses, and it’s the horses that are frightened by Cm. However, I bet that others will disagree...  Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by arnopov on Mar 22, 2019 13:18:46 GMT
1/ Why was Porus a HCh and not a El? Not that it matters much for the main argument, just curious.
2/ The group move is not "entirely by Psiloi", so fails one of the conditions. Would you also allow a group (some Ps in BGo, Some Non-Ps in GGo) to move for a PIP?
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Post by nangwaya on Mar 22, 2019 13:33:34 GMT
So my questions: Is the group move of Camels and Psloi legal? Two thoughts: Yes - because the Camel element is not in BG and so apply GG group rules. The part of the group that consider Dunes BG is entirely Psloi. Plus this appears to be the Comon sense answer. No - because the group is not entirely Psloi. Also Camels QK knights and HCh act as Knights so are we correct in assuming that they QK HCh - I think so. What does the jury think? Ooooo...this is a tricky one Paddy (but I do like puzzles). Overall I agree with Paulisper. Here are the relevant rules:- Groups [8.10]: A group is a contiguous set of elements all facing in the same direction with each in both edge and corner-to-corner contact with another (see diagram 3a); or in at least corner-to-corner contact if part of a wheeling column (notice that it does not say “you can’t form a group in bad going”).Bad going movement [8.12]: A group move by road, or across bad (not rough) going, must be in or into a column unless entirely by Psiloi (again, it says moving, not forming, a group in bad going is limited).Camels [6.7]: Dunes and Oasis are BAD GOING except to elements of any type with camels. So what are we to make of it all? Groups can be formed in bad going... Psiloi are not affected by bad going... Camels are not affected by Dunes & Oasis... Therefore, as both treat Dunes & Oasis as if they weren’t there, then yes, they should be allowed to move as a group. (But remember there is no pursuit in or into bad going...see Pursuing [12.9].
And that Dunes & Oasis still affect PIP costs and Command Range) As for Cm ‘quick-killing’ Kn and HCh...well, both Kn and HCh have horses, and it’s the horses that are frightened by Cm. However, I bet that others will disagree... Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
For my two cents worth, I am in total agreement that the camels can QK heavy chariots, since they are classified as knights, and behave in every aspect as knights.
Here is a excerpt from the Wikipedia description of heavy chariots:
"Heavy chariots for shock-troops.
These were, until the advent of the war elephant, the only cavalry shock-troops available. Usually they were employed beside troops on horseback. Up to four men stood on a chariot, wielding polearms and close combat weapons. Javelins and bows were employed for range fighting. The chariot was a heavy construction and moved relatively slowly. Light infantry could keep up with them. The momentum of this heavy chariot was sufficient to break through enemy formations, causing an effect similar to heavy cavalry with lances. Some generals such as Cyrus II and Darius III of Persia and Mithridates of Pontus, attached scythes to their chariot forces' wheels, in the further hope of breaking up enemy formations. Historically, however, this tactic had at best mixed success, either because the horses would not charge directly into closely packed formations or because the opposing force would simply stand far enough apart from each other to avoid the scythes and then pull out the drivers, as they rode through the gaps created."
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Post by stevie on Mar 22, 2019 14:38:07 GMT
2/ The group move is not "entirely by Psiloi", so fails one of the conditions. Would you also allow a group (some Ps in BGo, Some Non-Ps in GGo) to move for a PIP? Good point Arnopov.  Yes, Bad Going Movement [8.12] does indeed say:- “A group move across bad going must be in a column, unless entirely by Psiloi.” But what exactly does the word “ unless” apply too? Does it mean that the group must be entirely Psiloi... ...or does it mean those moving across the bad going must be entirely Psiloi? (However, I’m pretty sure that the consensus of the DBA community is that the former applies,
so you are correct)Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by greedo on Mar 22, 2019 15:13:42 GMT
I would agree that the group is the important part of the rule, so it’s all about a group comprised entirely of Ps.. based on my “careful reading of the rules”
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Post by paddy649 on Mar 22, 2019 15:54:00 GMT
OK - so the Ps and Cam could group move through Dunes. That is the way we played it......BUT follow up question. Still legal if only 1 Ps and 1 Cam rather than 2 & 1? From the arguments given this has to be OK.
The alignment was such that the HCh was sucked into the BG. So no snags there. I hadn’t seen the trap.
Finally Cam QK HCh. So my boy beat me fair and square. No asterisk against the win.
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Post by primuspilus on Mar 22, 2019 16:16:31 GMT
I am firmly with Arnopov on this one. By the way, Ps do NOT treat BGo as GGo for movement purposes. They treat it as BGo, but they are allowed, if moving as a SINGLE Ps group, to move a full group move of up to 3BW.
However, Camels treat oasis and dunes as NOT BGo. So what you have is the identical situation as a line of Ps in BGo joined to a line of HI in GGo. The group is NOT entirely of Ps, and any such group move clearly does cross BGo.
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Post by primuspilus on Mar 22, 2019 18:23:59 GMT
By the way, Paddy, it is also (IIRC) a standard board wargaming maxim (from my days of playing Advanced Third Reich, ASL, etc) that in the event a mistake is made with the rules, and neither player notices/both players accept the move/outcome/decision, then any such results stand. So no worries, mate, your son beat you fair and square … at least that's my take. He outplayed you, mate. |
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Post by paddy649 on Mar 22, 2019 18:53:22 GMT
By the way, Paddy, it is also (IIRC) a standard board wargaming maxim (from my days of playing Advanced Third Reich, ASL, etc) that in the event a mistake is made with the rules, and neither player notices/both players accept the move/outcome/decision, then any such results stand. So no worries, mate, your son beat you fair and square … at least that's my take. He outplayed you, mate. We noticed the issue at the time and just couldn’t work out the rules - so it wasn’t a case of making a mistake and accepting the rules it was a case of “help - what happens here.” Also it wasn’t a case of playing on. At 1:3 & a QK my General was as good as dead and we did a “what if” roll to confirm - but was it done legally? But absolutely I was out played and the boy done good! And no complaints either - I didn’t let him win, it wasn’t a lucky die roll and I thought I had him on the ropes before he worked out a way to win. It was like seeing his rugby team go on a 36 game winning streak. #prouddad |
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Post by davidjconstable on Mar 22, 2019 19:46:23 GMT
As far as I know Poros would be HCh because the elite of the army was the chariots.
Elephants in parades yes, battle no.
Not all elephants in armies were fighting elephants, sometimes they might even be youngsters with their mother, this is sometimes shown on coins etc.
David Constable
P.S. - In one of my books I had there was mention of an Indian King who rode an elephant in battle with a chariot bodyguard.
Darius at Gaugamela rode in a chariot (4 horse, two crew) with a cavalry bodyguard, so odd combinations are not unknown.
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Post by paddy649 on Mar 22, 2019 20:24:44 GMT
David - while you are 100% correct and I wish I could have been as articulate as you the truth is I cocked up and misremembered the Army list and didn’t bother to check.
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Post by Haardrada on Mar 23, 2019 0:41:06 GMT
2/ The group move is not "entirely by Psiloi", so fails one of the conditions. Would you also allow a group (some Ps in BGo, Some Non-Ps in GGo) to move for a PIP? Good point Arnopov. Yes, Bad Going Movement [8.12] does indeed say:- “A group move across bad going must be in a column, unless entirely by Psiloi.” But what exactly does the word “ unless” apply too? Does it mean that the group must be entirely Psiloi... ...or does it mean those moving across the bad going must be entirely Psiloi? (However, I’m pretty sure that the consensus of the DBA community is that the former applies,
so you are correct)Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
I'll add my ten-penneth...."A group move across bad going must be in column,unless entirely Ps"..the camels do not count Dunes as Bad going so should be exempt from the rule. The group move allows Ps to move across the Bad going in any other formation including column...or are you intetpreting the rule as saying the Ps must move in column if accompanied by Camels through Dunes?I would understand this as rational if the Ps and were both crossing marsh...but should it be the case when a troop type that counts the Bad terrain as Good going?I think the rule that Camels count Dunes and Oasis as Good going is the only example of any troop type counting any Bad or Rough terrain as Good going so why hinder two troop types who can clearly function normally in such terrain? |
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