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Post by lkmjbc on Jan 31, 2019 2:58:50 GMT
I am calling out for folks to play-test the following changes to DBA...
A.
Change the combat outcome for Auxilia on “If its total is less than that of its opponent but more than half” to the following…
Auxilia Destroyed by Knights or Scythed Chariots if in good going. Recoil 1 BW from Pike or Blade, else recoil.
B. Change the combat outcome for “Solid” foot on “If its total is equal to that of its opponent” to the following… “Solid” Foot Destroyed by foot if CP, CWg or Lit & in contact on 2 or more edges by enemy front edges. If not Pike, recoiled by “Solid” Pike, otherwise no effect.
C. Change the “(a)” section under “Player Initiative Point Dicing” to be…
Except in the side’s first bound, a move that uses a PIP uses up an extra PIP for each of the two following cases that apply:
(a) If the moving element or group includes any Scythed Chariots not moving into contact with enemy, Elephants, Hordes, War Wagons, Artillery, denizens or camp followers, or if the element or group includes foot that moves into frontal contact with Bow, or is an element currently garrisoning a city, fort or camp.
I would be very interested to hear experiences from battles where more than one change is in effect. A re-fight of Pydna with Poly Romans against Later Macedonian Successors for instance (both Ax and Pk changes would be in use). A match-up of late Burgundians against French Ordnance would be another.
Though Clontarf, Cannae and of course any HYW fights would be welcome as well.
Joe Collins
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Post by stevie on Jan 31, 2019 10:00:47 GMT
It’s too soon for me to have any play-test results for you Joe, but overall I like them. However, I do have a quick observation about (a)... ...shouldn’t Auxiliaries also recoil 1 BW from Spears if they score less, as well as from Blades and Pikes? After all, the Greeks did briefly change from Hoplites to Thureophoroi-Peltasts before adopting Pikes. And one would have thought that these new Thureophoroi-Peltasts were slightly better than Spears in some way, or why change? On the other hand, in DBA Spears don’t pursue like Blades and Pikes, so the effect is roughly the same (i.e. breaking off contact). I’ll post more after conducting some actual play-tests... Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by lkmjbc on Jan 31, 2019 16:20:45 GMT
Thanks Stevie.
Again. Pydna is a great starting point.
I am dying to try Clontarf as a great Blade vs Ax fight, but I am having difficulty finishing the painting...which includes my Old Glory longship the has crowded my painting table for 10 years!
I will finish this!!! Or die trying!!!
Joe Collins
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Post by bob on Jan 31, 2019 20:35:53 GMT
I’m not sure how to understand this one:
Change the combat outcome for Auxilia on “If its total is less than that of its opponent but more than half” to the following…
Auxilia Destroyed by Knights or Scythed Chariots if in good going. Recoil 1 BW from Pike or Blade, else recoil.
I’m not sure how far the The recoil should be in the “ else recoil”. Do you want it to recoil A 1/2 a base width?
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Post by martin on Jan 31, 2019 21:44:11 GMT
I’m not sure how to understand this one: Change the combat outcome for Auxilia on “If its total is less than that of its opponent but more than half” to the following… Auxilia Destroyed by Knights or Scythed Chariots if in good going. Recoil 1 BW from Pike or Blade, else recoil. I’m not sure how far the The recoil should be in the “ else recoil”. Do you want it to recoil A 1/2 a base width? Bob I think the idea was that the Ax recoil a full BW, which means when the Pk or Bd pursue there will be a resulting 1/2 BW gap between the combattants (?). Joe What was the thinking behind the suggestion that foot might need an extra PIP to close on bows? What was this trying to simulate? Martin |
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Post by lkmjbc on Jan 31, 2019 22:40:44 GMT
I’m not sure how to understand this one: Change the combat outcome for Auxilia on “If its total is less than that of its opponent but more than half” to the following… Auxilia Destroyed by Knights or Scythed Chariots if in good going. Recoil 1 BW from Pike or Blade, else recoil. I’m not sure how far the The recoil should be in the “ else recoil”. Do you want it to recoil A 1/2 a base width? Standard recoil...1/2 BW.
I struggled with putting this in or not... I wanted to keep with Phil's sparse and dense style... but it can be less clear.
Joe Collins
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Post by lkmjbc on Jan 31, 2019 22:43:05 GMT
I’m not sure how to understand this one: Change the combat outcome for Auxilia on “If its total is less than that of its opponent but more than half” to the following… Auxilia Destroyed by Knights or Scythed Chariots if in good going. Recoil 1 BW from Pike or Blade, else recoil. I’m not sure how far the The recoil should be in the “ else recoil”. Do you want it to recoil A 1/2 a base width? Bob I think the idea was that the Ax recoil a full BW, which means when the Pk or Bd pursue there will be a resulting 1/2 BW gap between the combattants (?). Joe What was the thinking behind the suggestion that foot might need an extra PIP to close on bows? What was this trying to simulate? Martin
Martin...
PM me your email address and I will send you a lengthy explanation. It is part of a rather long article I am writing. I am not ready to share it yet to the general public.
Joe Collins
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Post by martin on Feb 1, 2019 9:07:36 GMT
So Ax would recoil a full BW from Bd or Pk (who then pursue 1/2 BW and leave a 1/2 BW gap), but would stick to the ‘standard’ 1/2 BW recoil against other types...(?)
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Post by jim1973 on Feb 1, 2019 11:33:33 GMT
Hi lkmjbc.
Just to clarify A, is it all Pk and Bl or just solid? Do you want any reports with Sp? I have Thracians and Hoplites that could help test.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by stevie on Feb 1, 2019 13:39:44 GMT
Just to clarify A, is it all Pk and Bl or just solid? That is a good question Jim. Shouldn’t (a) read as:- “If score less Auxilia Destroyed by Knights or Scythed Chariots (?!) in good going. Recoil 1 BW from all Pike or any Blade, else recoil as normal.” After all, Ax v 3Pk is still CF 3 v CF 6, and the 3Pk will pursue a recoil, so the Ax needs to ‘evade’ a full 1 BW instead of just ‘recoiling’ ½ a BW or they won’t be able to break contact with 3Pk...and if Ax can’t break contact from pursuing 3Pk, then the 3Pk becomes the better choice rather than 4Pk for confronting auxiliaries. And it’s the same with Ax v 3Bd (the 3Bd are already considered by some to be too powerful as it is. They don’t need to be better!).
The “any Blade” is to cover Command Posts, Litters, and Command Wagons, which fight like Blades, even though they don’t pursue. (And the word “any” is a hell of a lot shorter than saying “other than Command Posts, Litters, and Command Wagons”)
--------------------------------------------- But Joe, why have you made Auxiliaries be quick-killed by Scythed Chariots?! One would have thought, as Phil Barker did, that troops lobbing javelins from a safe distance would be the best antidote to SCh. Please don’t make auxiliaries any worse than they already are... (A plea from the self-appointed chairman of the Committee Representing Auxiliary Personnel)  Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by martin on Feb 1, 2019 13:58:53 GMT
So, what makes Ax more agile than 3Bd and/or 3Pk, stevie?
My guess (and it’s only a guess...) was that Joe might be looking for a way to replicate classical situations involving Carthaginian 4Ax’s keeping Roman 4Bd at bay, or Greek Thureophoroi holding vs a 4Pk phalanx. (maybe...).
3Bd and 3Pk are a different animal altogether, and their speed is what sets them apart from their solid (and thereby advantaged in combat by solidity) 4Bd and 4Pk cousins (?). 3Bd in bad going vs Ax, where the Ax should be in their element, and it's even stevens....
Inclined to agree over the Ax not deserving to be run down easily by SCh, although the javelin throwing peltasts used to counter these are replicated better by the Ps category, with open formation and room to dodge and thereby avoid the beeg squeelin’ wheelied beasties. (Ps only recoil from SCh, regardless of how much they lose by).
Just a few musings.
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Post by stevie on Feb 1, 2019 14:14:00 GMT
Good points Martin.
My answer?...play balance really (just trying to make Ax more useful and less vulnerable).
Anyway, it’s pretty hard to catch someone who is throwing things at you from a few dozen paces away,
especially when he already has a few dozen paces head start...
(Having double his speed would catch him before you and your buddies fell into disorder and gave up the
pursuit to reform...not sure if anything slower would)
Plus the fact that troops 'evading' or running away will sprint and move a bit quicker for a short time than
when they are marching along at a normal walking pace trying to maintain formation.
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Post by lkmjbc on Feb 1, 2019 14:53:10 GMT
Hi lkmjbc. Just to clarify A, is it all Pk and Bl or just solid? Do you want any reports with Sp? I have Thracians and Hoplites that could help test. Cheers Jim All Pike and all Blade.
Joe Collins
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Post by barritus on Feb 2, 2019 1:51:46 GMT
Some points - and pardon my skepticism.
1. Ax shouldn't die from Scythed chariots - so no need to change this.
2. I can see the 1BW recoil being useful for simulating 3Ax battlefield behaviour but not 4Ax (better ways to improve these chaps have been discussed previously on the board).
3. the 1BW recoil should also I think apply vs Spears - as otherwise you are allowing them to hard flank Ax more easily than Blade etc which as they say - just seems wrong...…
cheers
B.
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Post by lkmjbc on Feb 2, 2019 15:30:15 GMT
Bad cut & paste from another document (I think)...
The first should read...
Auxilia Destroyed by Knights if in good going. Recoil 1 BW from Pike or Blade, else recoil.
I was puzzled about the comments on scythed chariots... then I read my own post....
Bit of a mystery where the scythed chariot part crept in the text.
Joe Collins
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