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Post by medievalthomas on Oct 10, 2018 19:43:37 GMT
Why the rules aren't written in "today's" English (and never will be) is a long and complex question which is outside the scope of to the development teams's fiat. Whether the extra "deployment area" for "lights" count as Deployment Area for purposes of the Camp rules is anyone's guess but I suppose no real harm comes from restricting Camps to the "normal" Deployment Area. And don't get me started on Edifices as Camps.
They can go in Plough or theortically on a Gentle Hill though only partially as the Hill would have to be 1BW off the back edge.
So for teaching new players don't go into all the if/ands/maybes - just tell 'em place in the central Deployment Area, touching back edge and in Open or Plough. That's plenty to absorb in your first game or two. (And may actually be the intended rules.) You have my permission to at least initially leave out the Camp Follower concept.
TomT
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Post by menacussecundus on Oct 10, 2018 20:11:01 GMT
Thanks Tom. We got in 3 games of Dacians v EIR and he seemed to enjoy the experience.
As you imply, camp followers are a whole other can of worms which I covered by saying that there were different schools of thought, but, for the purposes of the games we played, we would be following my take on them.
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Post by bob on Nov 4, 2018 15:34:52 GMT
Tom, how do you get the idea that camps can be placed in Plough when the rules say clearly otherwise. "the rules clearly state that camps must be in good going EXCEPT which means not in plough. That might turn into rough.
"It must be in GOOD GOING (except Plough) on the rear edge of its side’s deployment area or on a waterway or beach, and should have only temporary structures, except that an EDIFICE so positioned can be declared and act as a camp.?"
like in the horror movie, in the old house you can go in any room except the basement. That means not in the basement. How else to read this rule?
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Post by jeffreythancock on Nov 4, 2018 16:44:49 GMT
Tom, how do you get the idea that camps can be placed in Plough when the rules say clearly otherwise. "the rules clearly state that camps must be in good going EXCEPT which means not in plough. That might turn into rough. "It must be in GOOD GOING (except Plough) on the rear edge of its side’s deployment area or on a waterway or beach, and should have only temporary structures, except that an EDIFICE so positioned can be declared and act as a camp.?" like in the horror movie, in the old house you can go in any room except the basement. That means not in the basement. How else to read this rule? |
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Post by stevie on Nov 4, 2018 19:35:01 GMT
I know what my boss means when he says “Everyone will get a pay rise (except Stevie)”.  (Hang on...why am I laughing?) |
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Post by primuspilus on Nov 5, 2018 1:08:58 GMT
Plough STARTS the battle as good going. During deployment (including camp placement) they are still good going. Once all players are done deploying (plough are still good going at this point) the first player rolls his PIP dice. On a '1' plough suddenly become rough going, due to last night's rain having been far heavier than assumed / the soil has high clay content / insert interpretation here.
This is why the need to say "placed in Good Going (except Plough)" ...
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Post by primuspilus on Nov 5, 2018 1:10:09 GMT
Seems both internally consistent, and pretty plain English, to me ...
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Post by jim1973 on Nov 5, 2018 6:12:40 GMT
Agreed. I place them in (heavy infantry) deployment zone, in Good Going, not in Plough.
I don't think this one can be blamed on writing style.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by paddy649 on Nov 5, 2018 8:08:57 GMT
Is “except plough” meant “not plough” then as plough is not Good Hoing this would be tautology and that isn’f Mr Barker’s style. So “except plough” must mean that for these purposes plough is excepted and so a camp can be placed on plough.....which makes sense historically. They are after all just fields and those don’t stop you pitching a tent.
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Post by martin on Nov 5, 2018 8:56:26 GMT
Is “except plough” meant “not plough” then as plough is not Good Hoing this would be tautology and that isn’f Mr Barker’s style. So “except plough” must mean that for these purposes plough is excepted and so a camp can be placed on plough.....which makes sense historically. They are after all just fields and those don’t stop you pitching a tent.  Seriously??? |
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Post by scottrussell on Nov 5, 2018 9:38:13 GMT
I am with the consensus view here. I think the addition of "except plough" is needed because plough is good going when placed. If you are arable and have plough as your compulsory terrain, you still need to place a piece of bad or rough going. But without the qualification, everyone would place their camp behind and partly in a ploughed field in the hope of securing extra safety for the camp if throwing "1;" for PIP's.
Scott
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Post by jim1973 on Nov 5, 2018 10:05:50 GMT
Is “except plough” meant “not plough” then as plough is not Good Hoing this would be tautology and that isn’f Mr Barker’s style. So “except plough” must mean that for these purposes plough is excepted and so a camp can be placed on plough.....which makes sense historically. They are after all just fields and those don’t stop you pitching a tent. Hi paddy649! I think this is a great example of Mr Barker's style. As described by primuspilus so well, at the time of camp placement, Plough is Good Going. It's only after you roll a "1" on first PIP roll that it becomes Rough Going. So the exception is warranted. I'm pretty sure there is something in the introduction that the rules are written in the order that you will require them but sadly, the sacred Purple tome has not made this business trip. Why this is the case is up for conjecture. Maybe Phil didn't think you would place a Camp in the fields from which you expect to feed your army? Either way, I'm sure he would be bemused by our discussion. Cheers Jim |
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Post by stevie on Nov 5, 2018 12:13:35 GMT
I would have thought that if Phil Barker wanted camps to be placed on plough, he would have said “in Good Going ( including Plough)”. After all, doesn’t “except Plough” mean the same as:- “barring Plough” “excluding Plough” “other than Plough” “apart from Plough” “aside from Plough” “not including Plough” “with the exception of Plough” Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by stevie on Nov 5, 2018 12:18:09 GMT
On the other hand (and I’m playing devil’s advocate here)...
...what do we do if it is impossible to place a camp?
Impossible not just because of the plough, but because of the placement of any area terrain piece.
If your camp is more then 1 BW deep, and terrain (other than a BUA) can be as close as 1 BW from a table edge, you could have situations where the camp cannot be placed along your base edge within the deployment area. This is quite possible with a large piece of plough, 6 BW by 3 BW, which must extend into one adjacent quarter. But it can also happen with other area terrain pieces, if the placement rolls come up right.
Now you could say it’s the invader’s fault for picking a table edge that is too small for his camp (he should know the size of his own camp).
Or it’s the defender’s fault for deploying the terrain too close to the table edge (he should know that the invader chooses the deployment areas).
But if it does happen, what then?
Allow the camp to placed on the terrain?
Allow the camp to be placed outside of the normal deployment area?
Or say that army doesn’t have a camp...it’s as if it were lost...and counts toward the victory conditions?
(The last item may seem a bit harsh, but I’m thinking of armies being caught on the march and not having time to fortify their baggage, thus having a morale disadvantage due to being surprised and not ready for battle.
Anyway, it’s easily avoided...don’t pick that table edge, or don’t place terrain too close to a table edge, or don’t have deep camps)
Any thoughts?
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Post by menacussecundus on Nov 5, 2018 12:26:17 GMT
On the other hand (and I’m playing devil’s advocate here)... ...what do we do if it is impossible to place a camp? Impossible not just because of the plough, but because of the placement of any area terrain piece. If your camp is more then 1 BW deep, and terrain (other than a BUA) can be as close as 1 BW from a table edge, you could have situations where the camp cannot be placed along your base edge within the deployment area. This is quite possible with a large piece of plough, 6 BW by 3 BW, which must extend into one adjacent quarter. But it can also happen with other area terrain pieces, if the placement rolls come up right. Now you could say it’s the invader’s fault for picking a table edge that is too small for his camp (he should know the size of his own camp). Or it’s the defender’s fault for deploying the terrain too close to the table edge (he should know that the invader chooses the deployment areas). But if it does happen, what then? Allow the camp to placed on the terrain? Allow the camp to be placed outside of the normal deployment area? Or say that army doesn’t have a camp...it’s as if it were lost...and counts toward the victory conditions? (The last item may seem a bit harsh, but I’m thinking of armies being caught on the march and not having time to fortify their baggage, thus having a morale disadvantage due to being surprised and not ready for battle.
Anyway, it’s easily avoided...don’t pick that table edge, or don’t place terrain too close to a table edge, or don’t have deep camps)Any thoughts? Have a smaller back-up camp (or a blank piece of MDF, card or whatever). The blank piece won't look as pretty, but it will allow you to play the game. |
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Seriously???