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Post by bob on Sept 23, 2018 18:58:42 GMT
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Post by scottrussell on Sept 23, 2018 19:15:59 GMT
Presuming the auxilia has its back to the side of the chariot element, then no, it can't make a front corner to front corner contact, so it can't make a legal contact with the flank. What am I missing? Why might anyone think it can?
Scott
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Post by mustrum on Sept 23, 2018 19:31:28 GMT
Logic? I mean the rules say it cannot be done, but you would think that in reality contact would be possible.
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Post by paulisper on Sept 23, 2018 19:37:39 GMT
Logic and rules collide here... You'd think that it's possible, but the mighty tome of 3.0 says it's illegal contact.
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Post by bob on Sept 23, 2018 22:16:52 GMT
If the cavalry hits the aux in the front to front, Would the auxiliary then have to slide to conform, or count as overlapped?
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Post by primuspilus on Sept 24, 2018 0:14:21 GMT
The right move is for the Cv to "group up" with the Cv currently fighting the Ch. This gives the Cv an overlap. If the Ch recoils, next move the Cv make a group move, hit the 3Ax, and force it to conform. As it currently stands, why would the Cv want to contact the 3Ax in the flank? It would be overlapped in close combat, and has a chance of getting stomped by the 3Ax...
Just me being an @## though...
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Post by lkmjbc on Sept 24, 2018 4:10:18 GMT
If the cavalry hits the aux in the front to front, Would the auxiliary then have to slide to conform, or count as overlapped? Yes.the cav cannot conform. The aux must either conform or count as overlapped. Joe Collins |
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Post by scottrussell on Sept 24, 2018 12:01:03 GMT
If the cavalry hits the aux in the front to front, Would the auxiliary then have to slide to conform, or count as overlapped? Not only that, the auxilia would have no recoil even after moving to conform. So that would be the obvious approach, but it wasn't the question. Scott |
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Post by bob on Sept 24, 2018 17:44:28 GMT
Indeed Scott, just looking for alternative scenarios. What about the top cavalry slides across the back of the Calvalry fighting the chariot, just outside the chariot threat zone, Slides down the side and closes the door on the chariot? Is that 4 base widths of a move? One across, one down, one plus to close the door.
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Post by menacussecundus on Sept 24, 2018 17:56:28 GMT
Indeed Scott, just looking for alternative scenarios. What about the top cavalry slides across the back of the Calvalry fighting the chariot, just outside the chariot threat zone, Slides down the side and closes the door on the chariot? Is that 4 base widths of a move? One across, one down, one plus to close the door. I would say not allowed, Bob, because it doesn't start on the opposite side of a line prolonging the side edge it would contact when closing the door at the end of the move. |
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Post by bob on Sept 24, 2018 19:44:41 GMT
Good call!
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Post by scottrussell on Sept 26, 2018 17:38:45 GMT
Indeed Scott, just looking for alternative scenarios. What about the top cavalry slides across the back of the Calvalry fighting the chariot, just outside the chariot threat zone, Slides down the side and closes the door on the chariot? Is that 4 base widths of a move? One across, one down, one plus to close the door. I would say not allowed, Bob, because it doesn't start on the opposite side of a line prolonging the side edge it would contact when closing the door at the end of the move. It can't reach anyway. Back 11mm, across 80 mm, that leaves 69mm of move, and its left hand front edge needs 90.3mm to close the door. scott |
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Post by chrishumphreys on Sept 26, 2018 20:16:24 GMT
If the cavalry hits the aux in the front to front, Would the auxiliary then have to slide to conform, or count as overlapped?
The most important point here is the first line of Moving into contact with enemy P9 "Troops that move a front edge into contact with enemy always results in combat"
I think the Aux can and must slide to conform because flank contact required front corner to front corner contact to be a legal move (c) otherwise"if this it is not possible, the move doesn't happen". It slides because the cavalry can't slide because the Cav is "physically is blocked by elements" and in that case contacted elements must conform. I don't think that the aux can say "I refuse to slide and therefore you can't contact me" but that is one for debate when it comes to a flank contact and Phil appears to give them that option.
Then when the Aux slides it makes legal contact with the psiloi but after movement has ended the turning to face takes place in the order of the first to hit so the Aux turn to face the Cav, the psiloi are no longer contacted and have no-one to conform to so can't turn to face fresh air (is the order determined by the phasing player here? it makes a difference).
Fig 10 is only about movement, however it is not clear that the Cav can force to Aux to conform by sliding in the case of a flank charge and there is strong feeling that the cavalry can only contact legally by coming in from the left and hitting the front edge of the Aux, then it would have to slide no question. I think the game would suffer if that is the rule because then there would be nothing to stop a player deploying elements facing to the left in echelon with the right hand element furthest forwards, which would forcing the opponent to attack from the side with a closed door being the obvious outcome next turn.
I think this need a FAQ response and look forward to hearing the views of the community, Thanks Bob for posting.
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Post by lkmjbc on Sept 26, 2018 22:12:31 GMT
Chris:
Your post is a bit difficult to follow... I take it there was more discussion on the FB page and that we are seeing only part of it.
Breaking it down into smaller bits would be helpful.
Here is my take...
1. The Cav is the one forced to conform. It cannot, therefore it cannot contact. Conformation in this case is triggered by contact to a front edge... the front edge of the single Aux...
Yes, there are still odd occurrences in DBA where elements cannot contact. This is one. DBA 3 has eliminated successfully most of them.
I have never seen this to be an problem in either standard games or tournaments. That includes in all versions of DBA from the first.
If this starts being an issue, or if some clever person establishes a game winning strategy with it... then I think the DBA FAQ team will address it.
I just don't seeing it being a big issue.
However, I would be interested in your take, especially the echelon left scenario.
Joe Collins
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Post by menacussecundus on Sept 27, 2018 9:56:02 GMT
Chris: Your post is a bit difficult to follow... I take it there was more discussion on the FB page and that we are seeing only part of it. Breaking it down into smaller bits would be helpful. Here is my take... 1. The Cav is the one forced to conform. It cannot, therefore it cannot contact. Conformation in this case is triggered by contact to a front edge... the front edge of the single Aux... Yes, there are still odd occurrences in DBA where elements cannot contact. This is one. DBA 3 has eliminated successfully most of them. I have never seen this to be an problem in either standard games or tournaments. That includes in all versions of DBA from the first. If this starts being an issue, or if some clever person establishes a game winning strategy with it... then I think the DBA FAQ team will address it. I just don't seeing it being a big issue. However, I would be interested in your take, especially the echelon left scenario. Joe Collins The discussion in this thread is just the visible part of the iceberg of debate on the Facebook page, Joe. I disagree with Chris' view, the phrase "moving a front edge into contact with enemy always results in combat" notwithstanding, and the reason I disagree is that what constitutes movement into contact is governed by the conditions in the following sentence. If it were the case, that either the contacting or the contacted element has to conform once front edge contact is made, the sentence "If this is not possible the move does not happen" is redundant, because the the situation can never occur. I don't see the echelon deployment - if I have understood it correctly - being a problem. The counter-move would surely be to attack the RH element (i.e.the one furthest forward) with three elements, two side by side and, ideally, the third "closing the door". Good chance of destroying the RH element, but even if one doesn't, the supporting element alongside has the next element in the echelon in its TZ so it can't close the door next turn. |
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