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Post by stevie on Oct 10, 2018 13:06:36 GMT
But the Ax could conform in the scenario you describe, Stevie. Move whatever it is in combat with the Ax back to make room; move the Ax forward, et voila. (Or move the chariot to its right, move the Cv with which it is in combat sideways to maintain contact/continue the combat.) I don't think this is how the game should be played, but don't let that stop anyone who wants to play that way. Incidentally, I'd be interested to hear people's views on the other scenario I described (where the element can make front edge to side edge contact but doesn't have sufficient move to make front corner to front corner contact). I wasn't clear from Stevie's response what view, if any, he took of it. It raises the same issues as the original question. Ah, but if just shuffling blocking elements out of the way were allowed, then figures 13c and 13d would be worded differently. As for your other situation...it all depends upon who has to conform. If the moving element must conform, then they should if they can, and if they can’t then contact is not allowed. But, if it is the stationary non-moving element’s duty to conform, then what the hell... ...just get the moving element’s front-edge into any kind of contact and let the enemy worry about conforming! Some time ago I made a “Conforming Flowchart”. It’s been a while since I paraded it about, so here it is: fanaticus.boards.net/post/10469/Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients, and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by menacussecundus on Oct 10, 2018 17:23:51 GMT
I see what you mean about shuffling elements. I had misremembered what the rules say on that point.
However, I don't understand why you believe the Ax in the original example has to conform with the single element of Cv which contacts it, but that in the alternative situation, where the circumstances are identical (front edge contacting side edge but unable to make front corner to front corner contact), the move is not allowed.
In fact, looking at your flow chart, I would have said that the original situation falls squarely within the paranthetical note in the third paragraph of the RH column. "If not enough space to conform to a flank or rear, then contact can’t happen."
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Post by stevie on Oct 10, 2018 19:59:26 GMT
see what you are saying Menacussecundus, and technically it would appear that you are correct. Normally, when a single element contacts anybody, it has to conform (i.e. get those corners touching). But in the original picture, it cannot, because there isn’t enough space to do so. And the moving Cv can’t invoke the “Physically Blocked” rule, because that only applies when conforming to a front-edge. Nor can the Cv claim that the Ax will turn-to-face the flank attack, as “Turning-to-Face” only occurs after the Move Phase has ended. All we have is page 9 paragraph 9, which says “At the end of the bound’s movement phase, elements must be aligned”. (i.e. corner-to-corner) Ah, but page 9 paragraph 10, last sentence, says:- “Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact, contacted elements conform on contact” This is explained by the January 2018 FAQ as:- Q: I have a line of cavalry that moves into contact with the side edge of a single Light Horse element. Does the Light Horse turn to face immediately or only at the end of the movement phase? A: At the end of movement. If the contact is not in front edge to side edge contact with front corners in contact, the Light Horse conforms immediately. The turn occurs after the movement phase. Soooo...using my flowchart:- The Cv moves into contact with the Ax flank, and should conform but cannot because there isn’t enough room. So the Ax has to do the conforming instead (contacted elements conform on contact). But how can the Ax conform if it can’t turn-to-face just yet? Simple...it moves it’s front corner to touch the Cv front corner, thus ending the Movement Phase legally aligned. Once all movement is completed and the Move Phase has ended, the Ax will turn-to-face. This is a better than saying “the general principle that troops that would make contact in real life do so in the game” is a lie. And if the Ax had someone behind it so it’s impossible to get the corners touching, like in the original picture, it’s better than having an element that is immune to ever being attacked at all! (except on it’s front). Surely that would be absurd. There are other contractions in the “Moving into Contact” rules on page 11. Page 9 paragraph 9 says “the contacting (i.e. moving) troops must conform”… Page 9 paragraph 10 says “unless turning to face, the contacted (i.e. stationary) elements conform on contact”… So which is it? Is it the moving troops that have to conform...or it it the stationary troops? Both of these lines then get contradicted by the who-conforms-to-who rule! Seems to me that the conforming rules could do with a bit of a shake-up... Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients, and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by paulisper on Oct 10, 2018 20:08:54 GMT
see what you are saying Menacussecundus, and technically it would appear that you are correct.
Good enough for me ;-) P.
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Post by stevie on Oct 10, 2018 20:31:41 GMT
Napoleonic Squares! None of these elements can ever be attacked in the flank! (But I’m not sure that such a formation was ever used in the ancient period however...especially with gaps between the elements leaving their flanks wide open to attack...)
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Post by lkmjbc on Oct 10, 2018 21:22:41 GMT
I am afraid I am somewhat lost in all the above.
End result. The Cav cannot contact. The move is canceled.
There is no conforming as the move is canceled.
Had the Cav contacted the front edge of the Aux. Then the conforming rules would trigger. It however doesn't contact that edge.
The FAQ team is aware of the situation. The development team even discussed similar situations several years ago.
To "fix" this would require more complexity. I personally don't see this as an issue that needs to be fixed. Others have differing opinions.
I would certainly re-examine my opinion if I saw games being won by this tactic. To this date... I haven't.
Finally, Stevie... you are quite correct... The while Moving to Contact section could use a rewrite.
Joe Collins
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Post by stevie on Oct 11, 2018 0:18:24 GMT
Fair enough Joe. I should point out I am a great believer in the DBA rules...at least when they give plausible realistic results. Can anyone give a good, logical, valid, real-life reason why charging a flank as shown in the original picture should be disallowed? Or is it nothing more than an artificial side effect caused by the way the current contact and conforming rules have been worded? Still, providing both players follow the same rules the game works fine...even if it doesn’t make sense sometimes. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients, and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by medievalthomas on Oct 12, 2018 20:46:02 GMT
Stevie there is no real world reason why the flank charge on the Aux should not hit. Its another example of a flank charge being less effective than a frontal charge due to a rule glitch. This was not Phil's intent nor would it be the intent of any competent rule designer.
But as several have noted the conforming rules are not well drafted. We worked a long time on the paragraph about which element conforms and Phil eventually accepted a proposed draft for this section. We did not work long enough on the next paragraph. Always bear in mind that to Phil the rule is in the first sentence (elements that would fight in reality must do so etc.) and everything else is just suggested implementation. But to us the first sentence is just aspirational and the rest is the rules. So in Phil's mind the Cav would charge and force conforming but he quickly gets bored with implementation. He's a big idea guy and DBX has lots of great big ideas.
The conforming rule should be triggered by putting a front edge in contact. This really isn't that complex but poor wording makes it so. For side contacts the nuance is that you must have enough MA too slide into legal corner to corner contact but this can be a hypothetical requirement. If so you should be able to trigger conforming.
TomT
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Post by stevie on Oct 13, 2018 12:01:17 GMT
That is a very good analysis Tom, and I thank you for it.
DBA 3.0 has made great strides into improving the contact and conforming rules, and eliminating many of the unrealistic cheesy gamey geometric ploys that plagued DBA 2.2. But unfortunately, a few of these still remain. And the case in point is one of them.
The current problem arises from page 9 paragraph 10 where it says “If conforming to a front-edge by contactors is prevented...”. Why limit it to just the front-edge? Rather than encouraging the general principle that troops that would contact in real life do so in the game, this front-edge only limitation is actually preventing real life contact. It would be far better if this line simply said “If conforming is prevented...”
But the rules have already been written, so one way out of this dilemma (other than re-writing the rules) is to apply ALL the rules as currently written. I am referring to the last sentence of page 9 paragraph 10, which says:- “Unless turning to face a flank or rear attack, contacted elements conform on contact.”
Enforcing this rule (which is already written in the rules and is there for all to see) would give the following sequence of events:- The Cv moves into contact with the flank of the Ax and conforms as best it can. Applying the "contacted elements conform on contact rule", the Ax has to complete the conforming. The Ax does this by moving its front-corner to touch the Cv front-corner, but won’t turn to face just yet. After the movement phase has ended, the Ax turns to face the flank attack.
(I’m assuming that if players object to leaving out the words ‘front-edge’ in the “If conforming to a front-edge by contactors is prevented...”, they will also object to leaving out the “contacted elements conform on contact.” rule. Either use ALL the rules as they are written, or leave some of the words out...you can’t have it both ways)
Still, should the DBA community wish to keep this unrealistic geometric ploy, and ignore the “contacted elements conform on contact” rule, then expect to see more formations like this on your table-top battlefields:-
Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd
Sp Sp Sp Sp Sp <--- facing Sp <--- facing Sp The Spears with the open unprotected sides can never be attacked in the flank, so the best that Blades can do is get an overlap on the end Spear element and somehow wiggle a Blade group to swing round to face the separate Spear group frontally...which will take time and cost PIPs. (Good for those pike armies that have a short battleline I suppose...)
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Post by menacussecundus on Oct 13, 2018 13:22:04 GMT
If "contacted elements conform on contact", why do the rules also specify that "contactors conform using their tactical move"? And allow the contacting element an extra move of up to one BW in order to do this? Why does a single element contacting a single element conform to it if contacted elements conform? And similarly why does a single element or a group contacting a group conform to it if it is the contacted elements which have to conform?
If you want an explanation for "contacted elements conform at contact", it is first, that the contact has to be as defined in the rules, if it ain't, the move doesn't happen; second, that the onus will generally be on the contacting element to conform; but if the contacted element is the one which has to conform, it does so at contact, unless it is turning to face a flank or rear contact.
And frankly, if someone wants to tie up a couple of elements facing away from my troops as in your diagram, I'm happy to take on the rest of his army with my 12 elements and hope the dice go my way.
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Post by stevie on Oct 13, 2018 15:12:34 GMT
Thanks for pointing out all those contradictions Menacussecundus. Rule 9.9: “the contacting (i.e moving) troops must lined-up and conform, corner-to-corner, etc...” Rule 9.10: “contacted (i.e stationary) troops conform on contact...” Also Rule 9.10: “sometimes the moving troops have to conform, and sometimes the stationary troops have to...” These three lines can’t all be true. I would be happy to play by the rules...but which rule do I play by? (I assume the third line overrides the first two...which means the first two lines must be wrong and are not telling the truth).I’d much rather follow the principle that “moving a front-edge into contact with an enemy ALWAYS results in combat”. (Which is itself contradicted by the need to have the front-corners touching as well)I'm just trying to find a way to avoid absurd situations where an element is totally immune from being attacked in the flank. Encouraging real-life contact is better than having rules that deliberately use artificial gamey geometric ploys that prevent it... P.S.It would have been better if those first three lines above had said:- Rule 9.9: “the conforming troops must lined-up and conform, corner-to-corner, etc...” Rule 9.10: “ conforming troops conform on contact...” Also Rule 9.10: “sometimes the moving troops have to conform, and sometimes the stationary troops have to...” And if the conforming troops are physically blocked and cannot conform, then the enemy must conform instead. ...then there would have been no contradictions.
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Post by primuspilus on Oct 13, 2018 16:53:41 GMT
Amen to that Stevie. You and I play this the same way. We came to the DBA battlefield, we SAW the enemy, and we CONQUERED him. As the great Murray Mexted once quipped: "this isn't tiddlywinks"
We came to FIGHT, not rearrange the garden furniture. Feck it I say, Cv hits the Ax in the flank. Ax turns t9 face.
Not personally what I'd do if it were my Cv - I think I can do better. But, it's the only way that the "prime directive" can be made to hold. That troops that would fight in real life would fight in the game. I find it hard to imagine the Ax would NOT be exposed to Cv attack in its current position.
By the way, the kind of thing that drives new players nuts is weird and wacky arguments about why my troops can't just move forward and bash the enemy already. If the 4Ax could, in its own bound, move and attack the Cv, why can't the Cv return the favour, and move into contact.
Agree with Stevie - rules should state what conforming elements are required to do, not contacting elements.
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Post by primuspilus on Oct 14, 2018 15:29:44 GMT
Further to the above, I do not believe the designer's intent was to use the conforming rules to prevent combat. I always felt the conforming rules were there to prevent untidy and ambiguous unit configurations. They are designed to make it relatively painless to have multiple contacts between units, and not get into arguments on the minutiae of angles and proportions like some other rules sets. That DBA 2.2 conforming rules could be used for all manner of nonsensical shenannigans is probably the part that turned most players off.
So people can play their games how they want. But if I were trying to play this game with a newbie or crossover, I suggest one make contacting and close combat as intuitively obvious as possible. I do not look forward to providing the argument to my opponent as to why the Cv can't hit the Ax. "That is the stupidest thing I've ever seen in wargaming" would be the likely response...
Remember, we're already trying to persuade the gaming public that Ps and horse archers don't do ranged combat, and that that is OK...
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