A shooting dilemma in DBA 3.0

If you think a change is inevitable to clarify, I would vote for simplifying the process. I can't see any historical based argument that would decide the issue.

Would it hurt anything to just do it sequentially to make it the same as close combat?

Just elimnate the ability of the non-bound player to change the bound player's initiative. You could still have the bounding player who fires at a shooting element have to to direct it's defending fire at anything shooting at it.

Per the example (which does not have anybody in a shooters TZ)
a) the Red Bw 1 (who’s bound it is) picks a target, and decides on the Blue Cv; Roll the die; keep the die roll for Bw 1, Blue Cv reacts to the shooting;
b) the Blue Bows (which must shoot at something) can pick either the Red Kn or the Red Bw...
c) if one of the Blue Bows shoots at the Red Bw, use the die roll that Bw 1 used in a)
d) if Red Bw 1 (who’s bound it is) picks a Red Bw, then Red Bw must reply with support

The non-bound player can see the impact of Red Bw 1 when he makes his choice in b). IMHO that is equal to or offsets the advantage of the bound player deciding the order.

I might just make this our house rule or what I teach new players, as trying to coach someone on the current situation would be a negative in getting someone to like the game. (Don't shoot me :-) ...Just speaking from experience teaching new players here.)

Bill

Yes, I think you are too pessimistic.

Your advice however is quite wise.

To answer your last question...I think Tom has that puzzled out.

Joe Collins

Phil intended the Third Party Rule to be played was written. In older versions, Bow 1 would shoot at the Cavalry, and then Bow 2 would shoot at Bow 1. Two different combats, each with its own die roll. This new rule eliminates that.

Bow 1 chooses to shoot at the Cavalry. It could have shot at B2 which would have to shoot back. If it were the bound of Bow 2, it could target Bw 1, which would have to shoot back.

The target of Bow 1 is the cavalry, so the target is not shooting back. Bow 1 is willing to gamble that it can withstand the +2 shooting of Bow 2 and even the -1 of Bow 3, , and then get a nice +4 vs Cavalry.

Bow 1 shoots at Cavalry, Bow 2 player interrupts with the TPS, to shoot at Bow 1. Bow 1 can not shoot back as it is shooting at the Cavalry. This Bow 1 takes a shot, and rolls a defensive die. NO HARM CAN COME TO BOW 2. If Bow 1 is still there and in range, it finishes its shot at Cavalry, with the same die it rolled in defense against Bow 2.

Once the Bow 1 player commits to shooting the cavalry, he cannot change his mind and take an offensive shot at Bow 2.

This is again a clever rule by Phil. There is only 1 die roll for each player.

Stevie, I know this is a difficult rule to understand, it took me a long time too, but please play the game as Phil intended, do not leave out the chunk of the Third Party Rule. I would like to, as I preferred the older double shot process, but I got over ruled

By the way for people who are looking at Figure 15b, note that the FAQ has fixed the error there.
"15b. The second sentence under “Third Party shooting:” should read, “If Bow A is still able to shoot after this has been resolved, Bow A may shoot at its original target.”

The FAQ team understood, that the shooter takes a shot from the Third Party and after this is resolved, the shooter goes back to the original target.

I agree with Bob and so it should be:

Per the example (which does not have anybody in a shooters TZ)
a) the Red Bw 1 (who’s bound it is) picks a target, and decides on the Blue Cv; Roll the die; keep the die roll for Bw 1, Blue Cv reacts to the shooting but only if Blue Bw do not shoot Red Bw
b) the Blue Bows (which must shoot at something) can pick either the Red Kn or the Red Bw...
c) if one of the Blue Bows shoots at the Red Bw, use the die roll that Bw 1 used in a) and resolve this combat first as 'third party shooting';
d) Blue Cv reacts to the shooting if still applicable after c)

if Red Bw 1 (who’s bound it is) picks a Blue Bw, then Blue Bw must reply with support

Clarifying the interruption of third party shooting helped me there. It is still a bit complicated so I am not that sure about keeping the one die roll, but I can live with it. But if we forget it I am not too concerned.

Bill

The whole purpose of the Third Party Shooting rule is to allow a shooter to shoot at an enemy of its own choice, when priorities are not in effect. And for that shooter to still be shot at by a third party.

The Bow 1 player chooses to shoot at the cavalry. It is not being shot at when that choice is made. The Bow 2 player trumps the Bow 1 by calling in the TPS rule, and takes a shot at the Bow 1. This does not change the target of Bow 1.

The Bow 2 player cannot stop Bow 1 from shooting at the Cavalry by shooting at it. Bow 1 gets to shoot at the cavalry but must defend against Bow 2.


In the older rules, Bow 1 would shoot at the Cavalry and then Bow 2 would shoot at Bow 1. Two combat rolls. No harm to Bow 2, as Bow 1 has "shot its wad," only one shot allowed. Phil wanted a player to be able to shoot at target of choosing, but face a penalty of being shot at first. And he wanted only one die roll for the original shooter.

when Bow 1 decides to shoot at the Cavalry, IT IS NOT BEING SHOT AT. It is only after it shoots at the cavalry, that it is shot at. It cannot shoot at two targets, and the Bow 2 player cannot change the target of Bow 1. "Hey I am shooting at you so you cannot shoot at the cavalry, you must shoot at me." No, 2 cannot make 1 change its target.

A shooter must shoot back at an element that IS shooting at it. Not at one that could shoot at it. Bow 1 does not need to shoot at Bow 2 just because it COULD shoot at it.

Bow 1 player declares it is shooting at Cavalry, the fact that Bow 2 player becomes a third party shooter cannot prevent Bow 1 from shooting at cavalry. To make things consistent, the applies in all situations of a shooter picking a target that cannot shoot back and then being shot at while shooting at original target.

Good Bill, but lets clarify.  
a.  as you write, but roll no dice yet.
b.  Blue does not roll for Cavalry, but instead says he will shoot at Bow 1, using the TPS rule.  3 will assist. This is resolved first.
c.  Now roll dice.  No effect on Bow 2 as Bow 1 is just defending, just as if the target were a Blade, no return shooting
d.  If Bow 1 is still there and still in range, then  Blue rolls for the cavalry and Red uses the same die it rolled for the defending against Blue bows.

The rule clearly says that the Red player must use the same die for both combats.
"If a shooter whose target does not shoot back is shot at by a third party, this is resolved first, then it shoots using the same dice score."  This was one of Phil's primary concerns for this rule.  Only throw one die for each player.  

If Blue bound and Bow 2 shoots at Kn, then Red can claim TPS.