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Post by medievalthomas on Jan 2, 2018 18:21:46 GMT
Rules are a compromise. Sometimes "realistic result/behavior" must be balanced with fiddly measurements. Some "mm" measurements are always a part of rules - everytime you move an element its full MA your making (an impossible) precise MM measurement.
Here the compromise was to not make the player measure the "closest" as it might be hard to get a precise measurement - we do similar things when we measure range etc., though but don't have to "compare" two or more imprecise results. Most games in the broad DBX span (including the French game) make you respond to the closest. Whether its worth the extra measurement v. the "sneaky" TZ dodging behavior allowed in 3.0 is something we need to work ponder as we play.
I'm interested in both the letter of the law re DBA 3.0 and also what people think are best DBX practices in an ideal world.
TomT
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Post by Michael Demko on Jan 3, 2018 17:00:39 GMT
The HoTT rule quoted by Simon sounds good to me - except that DBA's conforming rules may make the determination of "movement required to make contact" weirdly unintuitive.
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Post by primuspilus on Jan 3, 2018 18:39:41 GMT
What the HotT rule forces is a single element contacted say on a rear corner, would first conform likely with its rear edge flush with an element of the moving group (that IS the smallest movement possible) and then (maybe at the end of movement) if not also contacted to front, it only then turns to face.
I personally have no issue with a single element getting forced to align to any moving group - I can't stand seeing a pike Phalanx having to wiggle and shift and fart-@## about trying to a conform to a single misaligned element of Auxilia. Just seems ridiculous to me. But as a compromise, I am prepared in my games to allow players to "conform, or fight as if overlapped" if the angle of the TZ is that critical. That seems to me to be a reasonable compromise, even though I recall the rule not actually allowing a choice in the matter.
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Post by zendor on Feb 3, 2018 17:30:04 GMT
Please, guys, help me to make clear one thing... Does the element which is in front-to-front contact with enemy element generates the TZ?
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Post by stevie on Feb 3, 2018 17:40:34 GMT
Yep Zendor, that is correct. Nothing in DBA 3.0 can stop an ‘X-Ray’ Threat Zone (with the only exception being City, Fort or Camp walls, as troops inside these structures can still move out through their gates…or move out in any direction in the case of Camps). Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by martin on Feb 3, 2018 19:23:47 GMT
Please, guys, help me to make clear one thing... Does the element which is in front-to-front contact with enemy element generates the TZ? For clarity - EVERY element (and camp, fort, city) generates a threat zone, whether in contact or not. |
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Post by stevie on Feb 3, 2018 19:49:40 GMT
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Post by medievalthomas on Feb 5, 2018 17:43:16 GMT
The FAQ committee just agonized over the conforming steps when a single element is contacted by a group on side/rear. (Well I got them to agonize.)
Ruling is that the single element partially conforms into side/corner or rear contact on "contact" but if it needs to finish conforming by turning to face (because it was not contacted latter in the turn to the front) it does so at end of turn.
Don't worry about how we squeezed this out of the existing text. It works.
TomT
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Post by stevie on Feb 5, 2018 21:26:11 GMT
Excellent work with the FAQ Team Tom.  So can we assume that the following is correct. A group has contacted a single element in the flank, which must conform (rule 9.10) and the Move Phase end in a legitimate contact position (as per rule 9.9), but the single element will not turn-to-face until after the end of the Move Phase (rule 10.1)? (All bit convoluted I know...but hey, I didn't write the rules!) Here is a flow chart that I've posted before, but what the hell, I'll post it again because I'm quite proud of it:- If I make contact, Conforming troops line-up on contact, but those with
----no---- do my troops have <----note---- an enemy front-edge in contact with a flank or rear
l to conform? wait until the end of the Move Phase to turn to face.
l l (See rule 10.1)
l yes
l l
l Do I have enough
l movement to be -----no-----> Then contact can’t happen (see figure 10).
l able to conform? Think of something else.
l l
l yes
l l
l Trying to conform Then make legal contact (see rule 9.9).
l to the enemy front, -----yes-----> (If not enough space to conform to a
l do I have the space? flank or rear, then contact can’t happen)
l l
l no
l l
l Then my opponent
----------> has to conform…… ------------> ……so just move into any kind of contact
and let the enemy worry about conforming!Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Feb 5, 2018 21:59:12 GMT
I agree with your flowchart Stevie, except for the last part where it says ..."move into any contact."
We play it that the attacker must make their BEST EFFORT to conform and then the defender gets their chance.
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Post by primuspilus on Feb 5, 2018 22:36:16 GMT
Interesting, Tony.
Our bunch landed squarely on Stevie's and the FAQ side on this one. Basically the HotT approach, without the requirement to have enough roomfor the single element to recoil after, since buttocks of death has been removed.
I should add that since the single element owner has the choice to conform or fight as if overlapped, we thought this was a nice incentive to keep the group structure intact. Often our battles go to the side best able to reconstitute broken groups to smash stray enemy elements out of the way, and recoil them into even more bad positions after combat...
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Post by stevie on Feb 5, 2018 23:08:26 GMT
I agree with your flowchart Stevie, except for the last part where it says ..."move into any contact." We play it that the attacker must make their BEST EFFORT to conform and then the defender gets their chance. Ah but Tony, doesn’t that contradict rule 9.10?:- “...A single element contacted by a group conforms to it (unless in rough/bad going).” For example. Would you have a moving group conforming to the flank of a stationary single element in good going? Or where a moving group has contacted the front of a stationary single element in good going? In both of the above cases, you are having the moving group doing all the conforming... ...just as if the single stationary element were in rough or bad going, although it's in good going! That is not what page 9 paragraph 10 says. Of course, if you are talking about a single moving element contacting anyone, then they must do the conforming (or at least try to, if space is limited), or contact is not allowed (see rule 9.9 and figure 13c). But if it's the enemy's responsibility to conform, then just make any kind of contact and let them do the conforming. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Feb 5, 2018 23:15:28 GMT
Ok, I'll make this brief since I'm on the way to DBA night.
I think you took my response/ I responded incorrectly to your flowchart as what you are illustrating is not what I meant or disagree with nor do I have a problem with the FAQ.
I'll reply later in more detail.
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Post by primuspilus on Feb 5, 2018 23:57:31 GMT
G-d dammit, Tony, not only are you a bloody fine DBA movie star, but you get Monday night DBA games, as well!
Teach me, swami, teach me...
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Feb 6, 2018 13:30:36 GMT
Ok, I'll make this brief since I'm on the way to DBA night. I think you took my response/ I responded incorrectly to your flowchart as what you are illustrating is not what I meant or disagree with nor do I have a problem with the FAQ. I'll reply later in more detail. This is the part I was referencing:
"If conforming by contactors is prevented by part-element spacing between enemy or physically
blocked by other enemy or a terrain feature; contacted elements must conform or fight as if in full contact and overlapped."What I meant is that we play that the contacter (ATTACKER) must make their BEST EFFORT to conform, but if they cannot contact fully, then it falls on the (DEFENDER) to either conform or fight as if overlapped. Maybe, I'll do a video on this as it may be easier to understand. |
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