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Post by ronisan on Jul 8, 2021 16:15:21 GMT
So am I
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Post by ronisan on Jul 8, 2021 8:46:58 GMT
Hello Tony, but why are you ignoring the five words in the rules which say: „Surviving elephants finish their recoil.“? "An element already in such contact with any of these cannot recoil and is destroyed instead." means that an element in such a situation is trapped by the enemy element in its back! -> Recoiler is unable to (start it's) recoil -> Recoiler is in trouble -> Recoiler is eliminated. But an element of elephant can't be hindered to recoil by an element (friendly or enemy) in its back. It always finishes its recoil. So - Recoiling El recoils -> Element behind in its (recoiling) way is in trouble (Or do you think e.g. a Ps flank edge is able to "stop" a recoiling El? ) -> Element behind is eliminated (if the element behind is also El, both El are eliminated). Cheers, Ronald Ronald, Tony will doubtless answer for himself, but I think his response may be along the lines that a surviving elephant is, by definition, one which hasn't been destroyed. So an elephant which gets a recoil result but which has an enemy element in front edge contact with its side edge doesn't recoil. (Incidentally, you will presumably have seen that the FAQ says that an elephant which has an enemy front edge in contact with its rear edge doesn't recoil either? In other words, the wording of the preceding section - DESTROYED ELEMENTS - trumps what is said in the section on RECOILING OR BEING PUSHED BACK.) A recoiling elephant which meets another elephant is destroyed. A recoiling elephant which meets any other element destroys that element but survives the impact - making it a surviving elephant - and then goes on to complete its recoil rather than ending its move at the point of contact. Menacus S Hello Menacus S, ok - I forgot to mention that. Of course .... I absolutely agree in: “Q: Does an elephant that is contacted both to the front and also to the flank or rear by enemy front edges (“flanked” or “reared”), recoil and destroy the elements behind it? A: No. Elephants that receive a recoil result with enemy in front edge contact to both their front and to their flank or rear are destroyed instead of recoiling. This is the same as all other elements.” E.g. if in Stevie's example no. 5 the rear element would be blue and not red, the El would be destroyed without recoiling. Cheers Ronald.
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Post by ronisan on Jul 8, 2021 6:23:23 GMT
Hello, the Bd is eliminated in both pictures if the El recoils. The rules say: „ Surviving elephants (with means not being doubled / recoiling elephants!) finish their recoil.“ That means, nothing and no one prevents Elephants from recoiling! They go on trampling!… even other El elements. In other words … behind an element of El there is a 1BW x 1BW „trampling zone“. Any element partially or fully inside will be destroyed by the recoiling El … even other elements of El. And if an El recoils into another El, both are destroyed. See the rules: „If 2 Elephant elements meet, both are destroyed.“ Cheers, Ronald The way we play (and have seen played) .... In the first example the El recoils and the blade gets eliminated. In the second example only the elephant dies because it is already in contact see below. "A recoiling or pushed back element whose rear edge or rear corner meets terrain it cannot enter, a battlefield edge, friends it cannot pass through or push back, enemy or a city, fort or camp ends its move there. An element already in such contact with any of these cannot recoil and is destroyed instead."If there was a frog's hair of space between the El and the blade in the second example then the El would not die and trample the Blade instead because it is not in such contact. Mitch likes to remember this by saying if the El has a "running start" it tramples and doesn't die. Hello Tony, but why are you ignoring the five words in the rules which say: „Surviving elephants finish their recoil.“? "An element already in such contact with any of these cannot recoil and is destroyed instead." means that an element in such a situation is trapped by the enemy element in its back! -> Recoiler is unable to (start it's) recoil -> Recoiler is in trouble -> Recoiler is eliminated. But an element of elephant can't be hindered to recoil by an element (friendly or enemy) in its back. It always finishes its recoil. So - Recoiling El recoils -> Element behind in its (recoiling) way is in trouble (Or do you think e.g. a Ps flank edge is able to "stop" a recoiling El? ) -> Element behind is eliminated (if the element behind is also El, both El are eliminated). Cheers, Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Jul 7, 2021 16:13:48 GMT
Fine Tony. I’ll be interested in the reasoning why the Blade is destroyed by the recoiling Elephant in this picture:- …because “If the recoiling element is Elephants, all friends or enemy met are destroyed.” And once the Blade is destroyed, it’s no longer there to be an obstacle to the recoiling Elephant. But the Blade is not destroyed by the recoiling Elephant in this picture, but the Elephant is instead:- …because “If the recoiling element is Elephants, all friends or enemy met are destroyed.” And once the Blade is destroyed, it’s no longer there to be an obstacle to the recoiling Elephant. (Elephants don’t recoil like other troops do…they have their own special recoiling rules)With respect - as they say - phrasing the question in that way prejudges - and hence prejudices - the answer. The real question is "Is the Bd in diagram 1 destroyed if the El loses the combat but isn't doubled?" Hello, the Bd is eliminated in both pictures if the El recoils. The rules say: „ Surviving elephants (with means not being doubled / recoiling elephants!) finish their recoil.“ That means, nothing and no one prevents Elephants from recoiling! They go on trampling!… even other El elements. In other words … behind an element of El there is a 1BW x 1BW „trampling zone“. Any element partially or fully inside will be destroyed by the recoiling El … even other elements of El. And if an El recoils into another El, both are destroyed. See the rules: „If 2 Elephant elements meet, both are destroyed.“ Cheers, Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Jul 7, 2021 11:00:15 GMT
Hi guys,
I'm not happy with the interpretation of 'meet'! The last paragraph of the chapter "Recoiling or being pushed back" says: "A recoiling or pushed back element whose rear edge or rear corner meets terrain it cannot enter, ..."
So for me 'meeting' and 'not enter' seems to be equal to 'touching' - isn't it?
So - shouldn't both elephants be destroyed? -> "If two elephants meet, both are destroyed" (?)
Cheers Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Jun 25, 2021 13:06:45 GMT
Unanimity … I had to look after this word in my dictionary. :-) At least I did expand my vocabulary. :-)))
Thank you guys and happy gaming.
Cheers, Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Jun 25, 2021 12:11:11 GMT
Hello Stevie,
Jun 25, 2021 11:34:51 GMT 2 stevie said: I think you are assuming that ANY kind of contact must be part of some sort of close combat. Yes, every „move into contact with enemy“ … every move which costs PIPs … every move which is checked at the end of the movement phase to be legal … every move which is ordered by you as the general! But that is not the case. It is. An element recoiling or pursuing could end up in mutual side or corner-to-corner contact… Yes, but that‘s not a „move into contact with enemy“ … those are outcome moves, compulsory moves, which don’t cost PIPs and don‘t take place in the movement phase … these are no moves ordered by you as the general! See page 8: „Tactical moves … It must not be confused with outcome moves …“) …but these positions on their own will not cause combat - only front-edges cause combat. Exactly! :-)
So it IS possible to be in 'contact' without causing, triggering, or needing frontal close combat.
I don‘t think we get a consensus in this.
Cheers, Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Jun 25, 2021 8:28:21 GMT
... and the rules got even simpler! :-)
Because figure 9a shows the only possible "moves into contact"! If Bw X would be contacted by Bd C alone (no other elements involved) there won't be neither a contacting front edge nor a contacting group "at the end of the movement phase".
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Post by ronisan on Jun 25, 2021 7:15:36 GMT
Hello, and reading it again (!)
MOVING INTO CONTACT WITH ENEMY The general principle is that troops that would contact in real life do so in the game so that moving a front edge into contact with enemy always results in combat. At the end of the bound’s movement phase the contacting element or at least one element of a contacting group must be lined-up with an enemy element, either; (a) in full mutual front edge contact, (b) in full front edge to rear edge contact, or (c) in front edge to side edge contact with front corners in contact, or (d) with no enemy in contact to its front, but in overlap (see p.10).
convinces me, that figure 9a shows the correct "moves into contact" (in contrary to earlier statements). Bd C is "at the end of the movement phase" ... part of "a contacting group" (with Bd A)! Bd C needs Bd A! And one step further ... Bd C won't be allowed to contact Bw X slightly forward (in mutual side edge contact), because this wouldn't be "a contacting group" with Bd A!
Now you've got some stuff to think about. ;-)
Cheers, Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Jun 25, 2021 7:00:07 GMT
But the rules don't actually say "any element". They say "any enemies". They also say that the overlap is mutual - unlike right-to-right or left-to-left front corner overlaps where only one of the combatants is overlapped (unless is it a Ps or a SCh). And they say that this applies whether they are in close combat or not. Taking your example 4, I would say that not only is XXX overlapped by BBB, but BBB is also overlapped by XXX. (In practice, this is of no consequence because BBB is not in close combat and so is not disadvantaged.) However, XXX then destroys AAA, leaving us with your example 5. In my view, the two elements still overlap each other. I realize, however, that I am unlikely to persuade you of this. Edit: Cross-posted with stevie's reply. (I type extremely slowly.) Hello Menacussecundus, "overlap" is a disadvantage in CC (close combat)! That's why it is explained on page 10 (CC). It can only happen to the overlapped (disadvantaged) element and not the overlapping (advantaged) element! A vice versa overlap does only happen, if both sides are in CC (my examples 1 + 3). And a flank-edge-to-flank-edge overlapping element does this ... if in CC (itself) or not. In my example 4, BBB is not overlapped (disadvantaged in CC) ... the only disadvantaged element is XXX. Cheers, Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Jun 24, 2021 16:50:32 GMT
@ menacussecundus
Hi,
any element (or troop class!) refers to the sentence before, where the corner-to-corner overlap any element (or troop class!) except Ps and SCh is described. The following sentence explain just what a mutual flank edge-to-flank edge overlap is (even for Ps and SCh). No more. No less. All this takes part in and supports a frontal close combat (of an obviously friendly, adjacent element)! But in 5. there is no close combat. So there is neither a corner-to-corner overlap nor a mutual flank edge-to-flank edge overlap.
Cheers
Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Jun 24, 2021 15:52:31 GMT
Hello guys,
another try. Page 10: ... Any enemies in any mutual flank edge contact overlap each other whether in close combat or not.
AAA, BBB vs. XXX, YYY
1. BBB is overlapped by XXX, whether XXX is in close combat (with AAA) ...
AAA
XXX BBB
YYY
2. BBB is overlapped by XXX, whether XXX is not in close combat ... XXX BBB YYY
3. XXX is overlapped by BBB, whether BBB is in close combat (with YYY) ... AAA XXX BBB YYY
4. XXX is overlapped by BBB, whether BBB is not in close combat ... AAA XXX BBB
That's what this sentence is all about!
But there is no overlap if it looks like this:
5.
XXX BBB
Cheers, Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Jun 24, 2021 15:32:12 GMT
Hello Chris,
Q: Do you have to contact with a front edge to “move into contact with enemy (page 9)” and trigger outcomes (a) to (d)?
A: Yes. The rule on page 9 specifically requires a front edge to move into contact with an enemy to “Move into Contact” A: Yes, because by moving into overlap the overlapping element is supporting a friendly element already in its frontal close combat (at the end of the movment bound)!
Q: Is moving into an overlap position considered to be a “move into contact with enemy”?
A: No, it’s the other way around, a move into contact with enemy can result in an element ending in an overlap position, (see the next question). Note Fig 10 requires elements A B and C to stop short because the elements concerned are all attempting to move into contact. They could still move into an overlap position, for example, Element A may have the option to move to an overlap position in either front corner-corner to front corner or mutual side edge contact with X if it has the move. A: Yes, because by moving into overlap the overlapping element is supporting a friendly element already in its frontal close combat (at the end of the movment bound)! Figure 16a doesn't show any overlaps!
Q: What is (d) for on page 9?
A: (d) is to allow the possibility for an element that has made partial front edge contact with an enemy front edge to slide out of contact and move into an overlap position as it conforms, (see below and see fig 13b). This is one way to end in an overlap position but it is not the only way.
A: There is no "sliding out of contact"! Never! You always look at the whole group which conforms.
Q: Can a player move into an overlap position using a tactical move if the element being overlapped in not in close combat?
A: Yes, with the exception that CP, Lit, CWg, Art and WWg cannot move into any contact with enemy. An element or group moving into an overlap position without first making front edge contact does so as a tactical move. The tactical move rules on page 8 allow any element to move into any gap its front edge can fit through and because its front edge is not moving into contact it is not covered by the restrictions (a) -(d) on page 9. As a tactical move an element or group is allowed to move into an overlap position regardless of whether the element being overlapped has a close combat opponent or not (see line three paragraph 3 of close combat on page 10). A tactical move can end in mutual side edge contact, move past a side edge and beyond the rear corner, or stop with front corner in contact with the front corner, the subject of this thread.
A: Figure 16a doesn't show any overlaps! You can't move into those positions by "moving into contact"... these positions where achieved by outcome moves!
Cheers, Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Jun 24, 2021 15:16:11 GMT
Hello Chris, I think your thinking is still too complicated.
-> Appendix 1 (for 1 PIP)
-> Appendix 2 (same result as Appendix 1, but for 2 PIPs) A: Moving into overlap is a tactical move. If the two elements of AAA below move into contact with two elements BBB and then the single element moves up into overlap this is a tactical move, it is not an example of (d) on page 9. (the two moves can be done in any order).Well - that's exactly an example of (d) on page 9 "Moving into contact in overlap"!
-> Appendix 3 Well - that's a normal tactical move of a single element (at the cost of 1 PIP) moving into front edge to front edge contact, accepting being overlapped on both front corners (fighting with -2).
(a) on page 9
Cheers, Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Jun 23, 2021 6:55:57 GMT
Hello, I still agree with Stevie. 👍
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