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Post by ronisan on Feb 8, 2022 21:39:47 GMT
Incorrect I’m afraid:- “...except that Artillery and War Wagons cannot deploy or move at all off-road in bad going.” MOVE it says…not ENTER. So I repeat… …if WWg and Art cannot move into Bad Going when conforming, then conforming does count as moving. Oh…and groups using conforming to move out of an enemy Threat Zone… …this happens all the time. ▄ ▄▄▄ ▄▄▄ ↑The red group moves forward…slides to the right to align-up in a TZ as a group… …or it moves straight forwards…contacts the blue group…and then slides sideways. Either way, the left hand red element of the group slips out of the single blue element’s TZ. (Conforming or lining-up does not force groups to split-up, or Figures 13c & 13d would look very different)Hi Stevie, ok - so you play it this way: An element of Artillery is positioned at the edge and outside of a wood or marsh (BG). It’s corner is contacted by an enemy group. So you conform the Artillery by pivoting even if one of its corners enters the Bad Going? That‘s not the way I‘m playing DBA: The Artillery element doesn‘t conform and has to fight with -1 (overlapped). Your picture above … that‘s not the way I‘m playing DBA: A) It seems, that the two groups consist of 3 elements. Now, if red moves straight forward it contacts the blue group with its middle and right element (already lined up). The left red element contacts the single blue element, which has to conform to it. Or … B) Only the middle and right red elements move to contact the blue group (1 PIP) and the left red element contacts the single blue element (1 PIP) and conforms to it. No element is torn out of a TZ by conforming! Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Feb 8, 2022 19:34:04 GMT
I think you may be missing the point Ronald. Here the red group has moved into contact, but cannot conform, therefore the blue player needs to do the conforming instead. The single blue element must conform, as it is contacted by a group. But for the entire blue group to conform as a group, the end CP must travel 3 BW (!). So much for groups travel at the speed of the slowest element within their group… The situation is even worse if there is any Rough or Bad going between the groups. Then the distance the blue group should travel is only 1 BW…certainly not 3 BW! And all this is before they touch the red front-edge, and can claim the 1 BW slide. As for WWg and Art, consider a single one of these near some Bad Going (perhaps to protect their flank from an attack…which is a sensible thing to do). If this single ‘Static’ element is hit on a front-corner by an enemy group, it must conform. But such conforming may result in the single WWg and Art partially entering the Bad Going. So how does it move out again? It won’t pursue, it won’t recoil, and it cannot move at all off-road in Bad Going. It’s stuck there for the rest of the entire game! And if WWg and Art cannot move into Bad Going when conforming, then conforming does count as moving. These difficulties are solved by accepting that conforming WILL still follow all the movement rules. Especially as nowhere in the rules does it say otherwise. Hello Stevie, If I would be the blue general, I would conform with the single element (on the right) … but not with the group. Not even 1 or 2 BW. I would fight with the outmost element of the group (contacted by its corner) with -1 and being overlapped. Next bound would be blue bound! Time for revenge/attacking red or retreat CP back into safety. WWg and Art don’t conform into Bad Going - they never deploy nor enter Bad Going (!)… They never get stuck in Bad Going! See page 9 MOVING INTO CONTACT WITH ENEMY: „If conforming to a front edge by contractors is prevented by … terrain … contacted elements … fight as if in full contact and overlapped“. Cheers, Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Feb 8, 2022 13:31:35 GMT
I do agree with you Ronald (there, I bet that surprised you! )… …but I do so for slightly different reasons. Nowhere, absolutely NOWHERE, does it say in the rules that conforming is not really moving. That notion is nothing more than a player invented miss-conception. Allowing conforming to ‘not really be moving’ causes loads of weird stupid side-effects:- * It lets elements and groups exceed their normal travel distances (as conforming is not ‘moving’)… * It lets WWg & Art to pass through and even end in Bad Going (as conforming is not ‘moving’)… * It lets groups to pass through and end as a group in Bad Going (as conforming is not ‘moving’)… * It lets ‘Static’ troops (CP/Lit/CWg/WWg/Art) to end in close combat (as conforming is not ‘moving’)… * It lets groups leave a Threat Zone without moving straight back (as conforming is not ‘moving’)… * It even lets groups cross deep rivers as a group (as conforming is not ‘moving’)… Page 9 Contacting The Enemy does say “Contactors conform using their tactical move…”, but it doesn’t say “Those that must conform can ignore ALL normal movement rules”. Hello Stevie, I‘m quite touched … And I need some time to think about your statements: * It lets elements and groups exceed their normal travel distances (as conforming is not ‘moving’)…Well - that‘s just the official 1 BW extra slide if contacting an enemy front edge … so what? * It lets WWg & Art to pass through and even end in Bad Going (as conforming is not ‘moving’)… * It lets groups to pass through and end as a group in Bad Going (as conforming is not ‘moving’)…* It lets ‘Static’ troops (CP/Lit/CWg/WWg/Art) to end in close combat (as conforming is not ‘moving’)…Well - bad general (!), who lets his troops being lured into Bad Going, needing 1 PIP and single element moves to get them out again. But e.g. Art and WWg are not able to enter Bad Going at all! They would not conform if that would take them into Bad Going … and therefore would fight with -1 as overlapped … so what? * It lets groups leave a Threat Zone without moving straight back (as conforming is not ‘moving’)…This one I don‘t understand? Group leaving a TZ by conforming? … how‘s that going to work? * It even lets groups cross deep rivers as a group (as conforming is not ‘moving’)…And how‘s this going to happen? … Cheers, Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Feb 8, 2022 11:11:15 GMT
Following on from what Martin said, here is one way it could happen. Here the Red group has moved forwards into contact, but doesn’t have the room to conform, so the blue player must do the conforming. And IF conforming is not counted as moving (although nowhere in the rules does it say this), then the Blue CP can conform into front-edge contact with the Red CP…even if it exceeds its normal move speed, and even if it passes through Bad Going. Hello, well my interpretation of „ CP, Lit, etc. cannot move into any contact with enemy, …“ is different. Because in Stevie‘s example above, CP is part of a group (!) -> So moving the group into contact is also moving the CP into contact! It‘s not moving a single left element and a single right element with a single (CP-) element between them into contact by using a group move! For me, it‘s not a legal move/contact. So for me, if a group contains one or more elements which cannot move into contact with enemy, then the whole group cannot move into contact with enemy. Cheers, Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Feb 8, 2022 7:51:37 GMT
fig 10 page20 shows front edge hitting corner and not able to conform as contact not allowed so is opposite also not allowed. Hello Robert, “opposite“? … Well, in figure 10 „front edge hitting corner“ is displayed by Cavalry A. “Front corner hitting (rear) edge“ is displayed by Cavalry B. (If Cav B would have been part of a group, Auxilia Y would had to turn 180 degrees at the end of B‘s movement phase and conform as much as possible „front edge to front edge“. That would only partially be possible – so Ax Y will fight „as overlapped“ (-1) and there would be no group of Ax X+Y any longer.) Cheers, Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Feb 8, 2022 7:36:03 GMT
Thanks for that input Tom…very helpful. However:- ...it may be that a single Element contacting a Group or single Element or a Group contacting a Group CANNOT CONFORM. In which case the contact is illegal and you must back off. Just triggering conforming rules doesn't automatically conform the Elements. Wouldn’t this make Figures 13a, 13b, 13c, 13d and 13e illegal? (I’m sure you didn’t mean that) Hi Stevie, I think it‘s just the old „troublemaker“ figure 13d, which doesn’t fit to Thomas‘ explanation of „group contacting a group… contact is illegal… must back off“? Because 13a, 13b, 13c and 13e are perfect „front edge contacting enemy“-situations. Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Feb 7, 2022 12:40:00 GMT
Hi folks,
for me (personally) I‘ll keep sticking to the rulebook (page 9): Red for moving into contact/attacking side … blue for contacted side:
1a. Group (front edge or front corner) contacting single element (in GG or not entirely in BG or RG) -> single element has to conform! 1b. Group (front edge) contacting single element (entirely in BG or RG) -> group has to conform! 2. Group (front edge) contacting group -> group has to conform! 3. Single Clement (front edge) contacting single element -> single element has to conform! 4. Single element (front edge) contacting group -> single element has to conform!
Cheers, Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Feb 5, 2022 8:47:02 GMT
Complete consensus!👍 Because it‘s exactly what the rulebook says!👏🤣👏 My advice: read the rules … and keep it simple!
Cheers, Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Feb 5, 2022 8:16:24 GMT
Front corner contact is legal and triggers conforming on a side/rear edge BUT if contacting a Group you must conform so you need enough MA to move into full front edge contact (you don't even get the free slide if side/rear). If you can't than the contact is not legal. But if contacting a single Element with a Group than the single Element must conform so you don't need the any more MA etc. TomT Hello, Thank you medieavalthomas for perfectly explaining what‘s written in the rulebook in chapter „moving into contact with enemy“ (page 9)😄 Cheers, Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Feb 4, 2022 8:44:13 GMT
Thanks Tom. Just to be clear, are we saying that a front corner contacting a rear or side enemy edge never triggers conforming and is an illegal contact? Thanks Simon Hello Simon, I’m playing that situation according to the rulebook … which means: A front corner (of a group!) contacting a rear or side enemy edge (of a single element!) triggers conforming (of that single enemy element!) and is a legal contact. Of course … A front corner (of a group or single element!) contacting a rear or side enemy edge (of a group!) never triggers conforming (of the „bounding“/attacking group or single element) and is an illegal contact. Regards, Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Feb 2, 2022 20:01:10 GMT
Solomonic Judgment
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Post by ronisan on Feb 2, 2022 17:00:28 GMT
So what happens when a two-deep column moves forward into mutual side-edge contact with an enemy…? …an enemy that may be a single one on it’s own or is part of a long group line? Would you have the single element do the conforming, and move its front-edge into the side of the column? Or have it move some distance backwards and then sideways so that both front-edges are touching? “Turning To Face” won’t apply, as that says “...elements contacted by an enemy front-edge…”. Isn’t it better to just accept that corner-to-corner and mutual side-edge contacts do not trigger conforming? Oh Stevie … Your example „a two-deep column moves forward into mutual side-edge contact with an enemy“ is just not allowed as a move into contact (according to the rules)! If (for example) in figure 6c of the rulebook Cavalry B would not pivot but move straight forward in between Knight X & Y instead. Of course no conforming will happen at all! It would just be a change from „corner to corner overlap“ into „mutual side edge overlap“. But it would not be a „moving into contact“ … the Cavalry was already in contact with the Knights! Unfortunately I‘m unable to upload any pictures, which would be helpful. Cheers, Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Feb 2, 2022 15:53:17 GMT
Hang on…are you saying that in Figure 16a, neither ‘Wb-A’ nor ‘Bow-Y’ can move straight forwards, but they must, MUST, conform and get their front-edges into contact, because their corners touch? And in Figure 6c, ‘Cav-B’ cannot move straight forwards because it too has its corners touching? Wouldn’t this make ALL overlaps impossible, as ANY contact must result in front-edge contact, despite the page 9 “Moving Into Contact” option (d) saying you can end a move phase with front corner-to-corner or mutual side-edges touching? I’m pretty sure most players would say that is wrong. I do understand your point of view…you assume the “who conforms” rules apply in EVERY situation. But the “who conforms” rules are a little bit vague, and can be miss-interpreted in this way. So the FAQ attempts to tighten things up by going into more detail. Merely ‘touching’ any enemy does not always result in front-edges ending in contact. Some contacts (such as corner-to-corner and mutual side-edges) do not trigger conforming. Hello Stevie, You are completely misinterpreting things. I never said „that in Figure 16a, neither ‘Wb-A’ nor ‘Bow-Y’ can move straight forwards, but they must, MUST, conform and get their front-edges into contact, because their corners touch?“I said that a group can contact a single enemy element by contacting the single element‘s corner and so forcing the single element to conform to the group (page 9 of the rulebook). If Warband A in figure 16a would have been a group (e.g. 2Wb in column behind) and would have been moved to contact Bow Y front corner to front corner, then and only then (!) Bow Y would have to slide sideways to conform to Warband A (front edge to front edge). Cheers Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Feb 2, 2022 12:30:55 GMT
Hello Stevie,
Consider Figure 10 in the following situations:- * what if the right front-corner of the ‘X-Y Group’ had touched the left front-corner of ‘Cav-A’. Would that trigger ‘Cav-A’ to conform? According to the rules (group contacting single enemy element and enemy has to conform): Yes! * what if the right front-corner of the ‘X-Y Group’ had touched the right front-corner of ‘Cav-A’. Would that trigger ‘Cav-A’ to conform? According to the rules (group contacting single enemy element and enemy has to conform): Yes! * now look at Figure 16a…does corner-to-corner contact trigger conforming? According to the rules (group contacting single enemy element and enemy has to conform): Yes! But in Figure 16a there are no groups!
Cheers, Ronald
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Post by ronisan on Feb 2, 2022 7:22:03 GMT
Ah Ronald…there is a ‘get out clause’ in the small print. Page 8, Tactical Moves, third paragraph, last sentence:- “Each of (a group’s) elements must move parallel to or follow the first to move, move the same distance, or wheel forwards through the same angles with the group’s entire front edge pivoting forward around a front corner. No other changes in frontage/direction/facing can be made, even within a TZ except to pivot, wheel and/or slide sideways to line up in an enemy TZ (!), or to conform in close combat."Soooo, once in the TZ, the entire group can shift sideways a bit to ensure that groups front-edge, and not just its front-corner, contacts the enemy. (You know, I think I should have been a lawyer… )Hi Stevie, I know … I just wanted to explain, that a group contacting a single enemy element doesn‘t have to do this by their front edge! If the player doesn‘t want to or the movement capacity isn‘t enough, etc. …then a group is able to contact a single enemy element just by their front corner, because the conforming has to be executed by the single enemy element! That‘s what the rules say … but not what the FAQ‘s say. But I stick to the rules! Cheers Ronald P.S. Stevie - you shouldn‘t have been a lawyer … you should have been a tax inspector … by the way … are you a tax inspector?
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