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Post by jim1973 on Oct 19, 2023 12:13:35 GMT
Never been a fan of the main GW lines but Bloodbowl is legend! Also, the Lord of the Rings skirmish game (Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game) is one of the best skirmish games and easily adaptable to historicals. I'm painting up some Victrix ancients currently for a variant I found online.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by Simon on Oct 19, 2023 13:08:13 GMT
I also liked the Battle of 5 armies game using Warmaster.
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Post by paddy649 on Oct 19, 2023 15:42:01 GMT
I guess this could be a bit of a "what did the Romans ever do for us" debate but one might argue that GW: Maintained a significant wargaming presence on the high street Encouraged young people to get into wargaming and provided instore facilities for painting models and playing games Led the way in high quality plastics as an alternative to lead. Set the standard in terms of clear, well-written and professionally presented rules. Cheers Simon “All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?” IMHO GW have profited hugely by selling substandard rules and oversized and overpriced (albeit sometimes beautiful) miniatures. The only rules and ranges that sparked any form of interest in me were Epic and Warmaster but they seemed to drop those like a stone the moment they had milked their initial profit. OK you could see their pioneering of plastics as a contribution rather than a cynical attempt to reduce costs and increase profit but I note this doesn’t extend to 3D printing. Where you have a point is their well-written (compared to Barkerese) and well presented rules - but are they all style over substance? You may just detect that I’m not a big GW fan and never have been….but that’s just my 2p.
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Post by snowcat on Oct 19, 2023 22:35:21 GMT
GW raised the bar in presentation. It's what's expected by newcomers and many others today. Black Powder rules and various Osprey rules are a decent match for this level of presentation, as is ADLG and TtS. The Lardies have also upped their presentation to this level, and it's now their baseline.
This is what largely attracts newcomers to a game/rules set. It's the 'grognards who already have their favourite system' who couldn't care less.
So the presentation of a rules system is key to attracting newcomers. The quality of the rules system (game design) and the ongoing support for that system is what keeps them.
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Post by sheffmark on Oct 20, 2023 11:50:11 GMT
So if presentation is what attracts people to a rule set and DBA is so poorly presented compared to other ancient rule sets, then by definition there should hardly be any new DBA players around?
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Post by snowcat on Oct 20, 2023 12:27:29 GMT
There might be a few more if the presentation was improved. Problem with that?
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Post by martin on Oct 20, 2023 13:14:11 GMT
So if presentation is what attracts people to a rule set and DBA is so poorly presented compared to other ancient rule sets, then by definition there should hardly be any new DBA players around? I think we get new players *despite* the presentation, not because of it, so it’s actually a positive point that new players plough ahead…
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Post by snowcat on Oct 20, 2023 13:30:09 GMT
"Motor vehicle? Move over! Don't need motor vehicle! Horse and cart got job done for thousands of years, and will get job done for you 'new lot' now!"
Reminds me of...
TJ: ...There were a hundred and sixty of us living in a small shoebox in the middle of the road. MP: Cardboard box? TJ: Aye. MP: You were lucky. We lived for three months in a brown paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six o'clock in the morning, clean the bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down mill for fourteen hours a day week in-week out. When we got home, our Dad would thrash us to sleep with his belt! GC: Luxury. (Apologies to the Pythons.)
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Post by jdesmond on Oct 21, 2023 22:05:30 GMT
Agree with Simon on desirability of stripped-down version - one that you can bring to the game for checking ill-remembered technicalities during play without collapsing the table - the electronic version of ALDG v3 was great.
Games Workshop gets studied in business schools as example of vertical integration - they run the stores, make the figures, write the rules and the novels with the backstories and the 'mythos', organize the tournaments and conventions, and put $$$ and effort into giving their hobby a 'classy' presentation. I've never bought anything from them, but if you're one of those who 'pay to play', it's almost like joining a club.
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Post by jdesmond on Oct 21, 2023 22:11:45 GMT
Would add: Print the rules in readable type - at least 12-point. No 79-word sentences. Short paragraphs. Clear grammar (maybe teach ye English about sentence diagramming ?)
OK, my 3 cents worth (inflation). Happy Halloween, and see you at Fall In !
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Post by felixs on Oct 24, 2023 17:19:05 GMT
May I ask what this DBF is? (I remember a fantasy version of DBM by that name, but I assume this DBF is something different).
As for blingy stuff in rulebooks; I do not care. It is fine with lots of pictures and fine without.
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Post by lkmjbc on Oct 24, 2023 20:22:51 GMT
It is a forthcoming fantasy rules set from WRG. It is based on DBA, but will feature larger sized battles with a point purchase system for armies... You standard battle will be about 36 elements per side. Smaller and larger games are of course possible.
Joe Collins
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Post by paddy649 on Oct 24, 2023 20:27:11 GMT
Games Workshop gets studied in business schools as example of vertical integration - they run the stores, make the figures, write the rules and the novels with the backstories and the 'mythos', organize the tournaments and conventions, and put $$$ and effort into giving their hobby a 'classy' presentation. I've never bought anything from them, but if you're one of those who 'pay to play', it's almost like joining a club. You are right there. It was a case study when I did my MBA….along with Red Bull. I quizzed the Prof about it he pointed out something that struck a cord with me. He asked me who GW were competing with…..and I naively said that they were competing with the Wargames market. He said “No!” GW were competing with Pokemon, Lego, the Top 40, Hornby and the Japanese collectible market etc. Our Wargames market is small beer and not worth competing for. Apparently us wargamers don’t have enough cash to bother with! However, his appreciation of how Red Bull made billions from a drink that tastes dreadful was even more enlightening.
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Post by skb777 on Oct 25, 2023 11:29:16 GMT
Games Workshop gets studied in business schools as example of vertical integration - they run the stores, make the figures, write the rules and the novels with the backstories and the 'mythos', organize the tournaments and conventions, and put $$$ and effort into giving their hobby a 'classy' presentation. I've never bought anything from them, but if you're one of those who 'pay to play', it's almost like joining a club. You are right there. It was a case study when I did my MBA….along with Red Bull. I quizzed the Prof about it he pointed out something that struck a cord with me. He asked me who GW were competing with…..and I naively said that they were competing with the Wargames market. He said “No!” GW were competing with Pokemon, Lego, the Top 40, Hornby and the Japanese collectible market etc. Our Wargames market is small beer and not worth competing for. Apparently us wargamers don’t have enough cash to bother with! However, his appreciation of how Red Bull made billions from a drink that tastes dreadful was even more enlightening. Because you can add vodka to it, softens the blow
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Post by Baldie on Oct 25, 2023 14:14:48 GMT
It is Jagermeister that gets me. Truely awful drink that suddenly became the bane of every night I go on.
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