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Post by paulisper on Oct 13, 2023 8:42:55 GMT
I agree with your comment that “the phalanx Macedonian was more flexible and not this unwieldy block that could only charge straight ahead.” ….less so for the later Successors but that’s a different discussion. I also agree that the tactics involved are more subtle than ‘hammer and anvil’ especially in siege warfare (obviously.) However, you “didn’t sign up to the the hammer and anvil philosophy” but have subsequently retracted that statement for a more nuanced agreement that it was an important tactic that emphasised the role of Alex or the Macedonian King but was not the only consideration. Hence, I think we are furiously agreeing that Pike under DBA does not fully represent the phalanx under Philip or Alexander. So what to do about it? …and on top of that what to do about Alex’s Hypaspists who are utterly neutered under DBA? Re Hypaspists - perhaps allow their element to be (their choice before deployment) 4Pk, 4Sp or 4Ax or 3Bd?
Maybe not quite so many options (as above), but in principle would something like that be apt?
Should this 'how to fix Pk' move to its own thread?
Hypaspists would definitely be a different troop type under v4 P.
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Post by skb777 on Oct 13, 2023 9:04:38 GMT
That’s what I said ✌🏻
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Post by aelbert on Oct 13, 2023 9:28:49 GMT
Oh it is possible but you don't have to as Blades are good enough in a single row . Force a Roman player to deploy in three ranks and then see what happens agains say Pyrrhus.
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Post by stevie on Oct 13, 2023 10:32:13 GMT
A couple of thoughts. ① Make Pikes Stronger.This would force the enemy to have reserves, thereby shortening their line, instead of trying to stretch the Pikes to match the opposition. This can be done by having all troops recoiling from Pikes on an equal score, unless they too are Pikes (this is the method used in the current DBF). (I would go even further, and have Pikes as CF 3, +3 for rear support, and +1 for side-support from an adjacent friendly Pike column. CF 7 vs Blade/Spear CF 5…they’ll punch through, so enemy are gonna need reserves! And indeed, this is how the Romans, with their reserve Triarii Spears, actually fought)② Make Auxiliaries Stronger.Then they could extend the battleline and stand up to enemy, at least for a while. Again, this is a method used in the current beta version of DBF. (At the moment in DBA, Auxiliaries are soooo weak and useless they are no use at all)There you go…no need for ‘8Pk’…and it’ll encourage historical formations.
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Post by snowcat on Oct 13, 2023 10:42:00 GMT
Yes, those ideas have potential.
(I did say if you really want to keep the option for Pk to deploy thinner - which leaves you with reduced frontage when they don't - then Pk need to be improved vs Sp, and possibly a few other things.) So the DBF idea + your own addition is one way of achieving that.
I still like my idea of side-support for Sp *NOT* counting vs Pk.
Anyway, this is a step in the right direction.
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Post by lkmjbc on Oct 13, 2023 21:32:51 GMT
The issue here isn't with Pike.... it is with the movement of other elements.
In version 2 I won most of the US major tournaments with Alex.
Version 3 is a complete change. While Pikes now pursue- a good thing... everything thing else is much faster. This allows Pikes to be easily flanked and destroyed.
DBF addresses this three ways...
1st. Pike may now pick whether to pursue or not. 2nd. Pike wins all ties vs non-Pike. 3rd. Pike is slightly less expensive (DBF is a point buy game)
Try Chaeronea with the above. You will get a much different game.
Joe Collins
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Post by snowcat on Oct 14, 2023 0:15:32 GMT
The issue here isn't with Pike.... it is with the movement of other elements. In version 2 I won most of the US major tournaments with Alex. Version 3 is a complete change. While Pikes now pursue- a good thing... everything thing else is much faster. This allows Pikes to be easily flanked and destroyed. DBF addresses this three ways... 1st. Pike may now pick whether to pursue or not. 2nd. Pike wins all ties vs non-Pike. 3rd. Pike is slightly less expensive (DBF is a point buy game) Try Chaeronea with the above. You will get a much different game. Joe Collins Presumably 'everything else is' NO LONGER 'much faster' in DBF as well...?
(I'm saying this for the benefit of others reading your above remarks, if they don't have a copy of DBF.)
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Post by skb777 on Oct 14, 2023 18:15:56 GMT
The issue here isn't with Pike.... it is with the movement of other elements. In version 2 I won most of the US major tournaments with Alex. Version 3 is a complete change. While Pikes now pursue- a good thing... everything thing else is much faster. This allows Pikes to be easily flanked and destroyed. DBF addresses this three ways... 1st. Pike may now pick whether to pursue or not. 2nd. Pike wins all ties vs non-Pike. 3rd. Pike is slightly less expensive (DBF is a point buy game) Try Chaeronea with the above. You will get a much different game. Joe Collins Presumably 'everything else is' NO LONGER 'much faster' in DBF as well...?
(I'm saying this for the benefit of others reading your above remarks, if they don't have a copy of DBF.)
v2 was in inches and not BW’s, so I’m assuming he means it will go back to the previous measurement system used prior to v3?
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Post by stevie on Oct 14, 2023 18:30:23 GMT
In a word…”No”.
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Post by skb777 on Oct 14, 2023 18:43:55 GMT
All so cryptic
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Post by shrimplyamazing on Oct 20, 2023 8:15:35 GMT
Yeah, honestly finding the cryptic DBF talk quite annoying. Until its available, its not very helpful having every second response to rules ideas being 'DBF already fixes this (not explaining the changes fully)'. We dont have access to DBF so its not actually fixing anything til its released.
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Post by jim1973 on Oct 20, 2023 12:46:41 GMT
I'm happy to give the developers of DBF a bit of slack. They're probably quite excited as their project progresses. "Fixes" will always be in the eye of the beholder. They won't be for everyone and they will only be house rules for DBA3. In the mean time, I'm going to start a thread on house rules for Hellenistic pikes for people to try.
Cheers
Jim
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