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Post by stevie on Mar 4, 2018 11:52:26 GMT
Apart from Waterways, which can be crossed by troops making an amphibious landing, DBA 3.0 has no impassable terrain. However, DBMM allows ‘Craggy Hills’ to be impassable to most troops, HoTT 2.1 mentions impassable terrain, and even DBAOL has maps with some impassable features on them. So here are four new impassable area terrain features for DBA 3.0:- CLIFFS: these are hills which have one half that is impassable to all troops, and the other half is treated as a gentle hill. Available to any region except Tropical, Forest, or Steppe. Only one is allowed per battlefield. Consider them as a normal DBA hill cut in half with a near vertical cliff face. Cannot be crossed by roads. (Even Britain, not noted for extreme terrain, has cliffs, such as the White Cliffs of Dover and the Cheddar Gorge)LAKES: impassable bodies of water that do not touch the table edges. Rivers may flow into or out of them. Available to all but Dry Regions. Only one is allowed per battlefield. Cannot be crossed by roads (obviously). (Large bodies of water, such as Lake Trasimene, are already represented as waterways.
Lakes represent smaller bodies of water, such as that behind the Polish forces at the Battle of Tannenberg in 1410)MOUNTAINS: impassable hills in Hilly Regions, representing difficult passes in the Pyrenees, the Alps, and such like. These should be as large as possible, either 4½ x 4½ or 6 x 3 BW. There can be up to three per battlefield. If Mountains are present, then Roads cannot be placed or used. (These make interesting terrain, effectively turning the battlefield into a sort of maze of narrow mountainous valleys)JUNGLES: impassable woods in Tropical Regions, representing patches of dense jungle with very heavy undergrowth. These can be of any size, and there can be up to three per battlefield. (Roads…well, paths or animal trails…can pass through jungles, but no troops can leave the road when in them.
Even pursuers, recoilers, pushed back or fleeing troops must stay on the ‘road’. Combat is as if in bad going)So let’s add impassable terrain to DBA. If DBMM, HoTT, and even DBAOL can have them, why can’t DBA also include this terrain type as well? Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by bluestone28 on Mar 4, 2018 15:34:37 GMT
good idea!  (it's the first thing i asked to my friend about terrain... the lack of some sort impassable, and hop Stevie do it! ) so i imagine that if the unit must recoil or flee and it's impossible to do it(on cliff side feet or on cliff top side for example) it is destroyed ? also how you think to insert it to the terrain list (optionable or not) ? |
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Post by stevie on Mar 4, 2018 18:55:49 GMT
Quite right bluestone28; impassable terrain is…er…impassable, and can never be entered.  And yes, make them optional. (See rule 12.5 for recoiling into terrain that you cannot enter.
And rules 12.7 & 12.8 for fleeing troops halting when they meet bad going other than a marsh)You might also be interested in this: fanaticus.boards.net/post/11216/And for those of you who like me dislike the ‘supermarket’ approach to terrain selection (“Oh look, marshes are on special offer in this region, I’ll definitely pop a couple of those in my shopping trolley!”), here is an updated version of my “Randomly Generated Terrain Chart”:- RANDOMLY GENERATED TERRAIN [rule 6.5] (If you prefer to choose terrain, as per the DBA 3.0 rules, then do so and don’t bother rolling any random dice).
Brackets show the maximums allowed [rule 6.3]. Items in red are bad going, and those in brown are rough going. Mountains and Jungles are impassable.
If a terrain type has already reached the maximum allowed, chose another from that same box. If there is no alternative, choose any allowed type for that region.
Pick one or two Roll for two or three Optional Features [rule 6.5, but for BBDBA see rule 13.3]:
| Compulsory
Features [6.5]: | 1 Linear Terrain | 2 Rough Terrain | 3 Leafy Terrain | 4 Harsh Terrain | 5 Undulating Terrain | 6 Built Up Areas | | DRY | Rocky (3) or Scrub (3) | Dunes (3) | Dunes (3) | Oasis (1) | Difficult Hill (3)
or Cliff-face (1) | Difficult Hill (3) | BUA (1) | | HILLY | Difficult Hills (3) | Road* (2) or River (1)
or Lake (1) | Wood (3) | Wood (3) | extra Difficult Hill (3) or Mountain* (3) or Cliff-face (1) | extra Difficult Hill (3) | BUA (1) | | ARABLE | A pair of Plough
for a single pick or a BUA (1)
| Road (2) or River (1) or Lake (1) or Waterway (1) | extra Plough (3)
or Scrub (3) or Boggy (3) or Enclosure (3) | Wood (3) | Difficult Hill (3) or Cliff-face (1) | Difficult Hill (3) or Gentle Hill (3) | BUA (1) | | LITTORAL | a Waterway (1) | Road (2) or River (1) or Lake (1) | all Woods (3) or all Dunes (3) | all Woods (3) or all Dunes (3) | all Marshes (3)...(or all Difficult Hills) (3) | a Cliff-face (1) or all Difficult Hills (3) (...or all Marshes) (3) | BUA (1) | | FOREST | Woods (3) | River (1) or Lake (1) | extra Wood (3) | extra Wood (3) | Marsh (3) | Gentle Hill (3) | BUA (1) | | TROPICAL | Woods (3) | Road (2) or River (1) or Lake (1) | Enclosure (3) | Jungle (3) | all Marshes (3)… (...or all Gentle Hills) | a Gully (1) or
all Gentle Hills (3)...
(...or all Marshes) (3)
| BUA (1) | | STEPPE | Gentle Hills (3) | River (1) or Lake (1) | Rocky (3) or Scrub (3) | Scrub (3) | Rocky (3) | a Gully (1) | BUA (1) |
Notes: Plough is not Rough but Good Going unless the defender throws a '1' for his first PIP roll [rule 6.7], or rolls '7' or less in BBDBA [rule 13.6].
Arable must have at least one River, Waterway, Lake, Rough (other than Plough) or Bad Going, so the last feature may need re-selecting. [6.3]
Littoral cannot have both Woods and Dunes, nor both Marshes and Difficult Hills, so subsequent selections will be limited. [6.5]
Likewise, Hilly regions cannot have both Mountains and Roads (and Tropical regions cannot have both Marshes and Gentle Hills - optional).
Littoral/Tropical die rolls of ‘4’ or ‘5’ indicate that the first item listed must be taken (unless the alternative terrain type has already been selected).
If a BUA is present, dice to see what type it will be: 1 = a City, 2 = a Fort, 3 = a Hamlet, 4 = an Edifice, 5 = defenders choice, 6 = invaders choice.
Note that Lakes are Area Terrain pieces, but are in the Linear Terrain column because they act like Waterways (except they don't allow Littoral Landings).
And a Cliff is a Gentle Hill that has part of it removed and replaced by an impassable vertical Cliff-face (troops entirely beyond the Cliff-face ignore TZ's).
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(The chart above may look complicated, but really all you do is throw a dice and take what's given.
And you may need to widen this page in order to keep everything looking neat and tidy)A downloadable PDF version can be found here:-
fanaticus-dba.fandom.com/wiki/File:Randomly_Generated_Terrain_Chart.pdfSome Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by jim1973 on Mar 4, 2018 22:16:35 GMT
I like the ideas Stevie. Would you transport the board edge rules over to the impassable terrain edges? Just thinking that it may allow entry of some "geometrical ploys" (a.k.a. cheese) to avoid contact.
I must say, for my solo games, I randomly choose my terrain using a simple dice roll. But then again, I also dice for the make up of the armies as well! No two Thracian armies have ever been identical.
Jim
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Post by Simon on Mar 5, 2018 9:58:13 GMT
I see there is a pond/lake in the Spartacus scenario in GBOH for DBA3.
Simon
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Post by stevie on Mar 5, 2018 11:23:37 GMT
I like the ideas Stevie. Would you transport the board edge rules over to the impassable terrain edges? Just thinking that it may allow entry of some "geometrical ploys" (a.k.a. cheese) to avoid contact. Well Jim, all four of these proposed impassable terrain pieces are ‘Area Terrain Features’, and as such they must still obey all the usual area terrain rules, i.e. be 1 BW from other area features and table side-edges (rule 6.4). (Although not Linear Terrain, I decided to place Lakes in the linear column of my random terrain generator as they are similar to waterways…areas of water that can’t be waded through)Of course, Area Terrain features can touch Linear Terrain pieces, which creates some interesting combinations:- A Lake touching a Waterway-sea represents shallow salt water lakes and lagoons, too deep to wade through but also too shallow with too many underwater obstacles to allow ships to enter. A Jungle touching a sea represents a mangrove swamp, which is too dense for large bodies of men to move through in the course of a single day. A Cliff touching a sea looks very realistic; the pounding of the waves has eroded away part of the hill to create the cliff-face. If the sea has an area of beach in front of it then fine…the tide is out. (And is a good place to find fossils) All these can cause extra problems to those pesky amphibious Littoral troops, if the placement rolls come up right. And remember that Waterways and compulsory terrain must be placed first, which will further limit placement. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by bob on Mar 6, 2018 5:28:44 GMT
One of the things I have always liked about DBA is that it can be so easily modified. I have called it a Tool Kit for creating battles. This is especially true when modeling historical battles. In the Spartacus game cited, we had a lake as impassable terrain as there were such in the locale. We also had walls as defensive items, and a giant woods. I have done many historical recreations with features not in the original rules. Having house rules is a great activity for variety in the game
That notwithstanding, as one who argued against the addition of the Rough terrain as it made the basic game more complex, I would never argue for more terrain types in the basic game. The ideas above are excellent for players who want some variety in simple DBA but do not want to move to the complicated DBMM.
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Post by medievalthomas on Mar 8, 2018 18:14:38 GMT
For those wanting a more random terrain distribution we have gone with a three strip system instead of the four quarter that Phil (brilliantly) added to DBA 3.0.
In the three strip system you divide the board into three equal rectangles numbered: 1-2, 3-4, 5-6. Roll for each feature and put them in the corresponding strip. The advantage is that the strips are bigger so less terrain gets nulled out but you must spread the terrain over a strip rather than concentrated if a square. Also gets rid of either player getting to select square (more random).
For historical games you can "rig" the system to only allow Woods in 1-2 & 5-6 for instance to get a clear center etc.
Words best on 6X4 for 25mm Big Battle though you can also use it for 30" board 15mm games.
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Post by timurilank on Mar 13, 2018 21:45:23 GMT
Stevie,
Your random terrain chart is currently used exclusively for the Merovingian campaign tests.
My compliments as this has saved quite a lot of time for the six battles currently completed. We also make use of seldom selected features which is another bonus.
Alas, the random terrain table would not copy.
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Post by stevie on Aug 25, 2019 21:01:08 GMT
Stevie, a suggestion for your impassable terrain: single elements of psiloi can move into/through/exit from cliffs, mountains and jungle at the rate of 1 BW per bound, multiple moves possible if enough pips are used. I have noted that in actual battles, impassable terrain often becomes negotiable if the other choices are swept by fire. Well, my rational for ‘impassable terrain’ is as follows:- * yes, troops could eventually machete their way through a jungle... ...but could they do it in the few hours that a battle lasts? * having some troops (but not others) able to enter ‘impassable terrain’ like mountains gives them a safe haven where they can’t be attacked (except by other Ps...or if shot at). * and I very much dislike the idea of Ps scaling up or down a vertical cliff-face like some ancient version of the U.S. Rangers on D-Day! (Spartacus did use knotted vines to scale down the flanks of Vesuvius to surprise the Romans,
but that wasn’t in the middle of a battle; it was more like a wide off-table outflanking manoeuvre:-
See fanaticus.boards.net/thread/1040/off-table-outflanking-marches ) However, as with all “House Rules”, please feel free to adapt anything to want to suit your tastes.  Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by nangwaya on Aug 25, 2019 21:27:40 GMT
For the cliff edge, would any element that recoils or flees off the cliff edge (or any of your new impassable terrain), be destroyed?
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Post by stevie on Aug 25, 2019 22:33:34 GMT
As I posted earlier:- (See rule 12.5 for recoiling into terrain that you cannot enter.
And rules 12.7 & 12.8 for fleeing troops halting when they meet bad going other than a marsh) So basically:- "Halting [12.5]: A recoiling or pushed back element whose rear edge or rear corner meets terrain it cannot enter, a battlefield edge,
friends it cannot pass through or push back, an enemy, or a city, fort or camp, (or a city gate – see FAQ) ends its move there (see figure 19b).
Recoil destruction: An element already in such contact with any of these cannot recoil move back and is destroyed instead (see figure 20f)."And if fleeing:- "It stops [12.7] before completing its move and lines up if its front edge (or front corner only) contacts any of:-
(a) enemy (whom it will fight next bound), (b) friends it cannot pass through (as specified on page 9.5), (c) a city, fort or camp,
(d) a waterway (or any other type of impassable terrain, such as a Lake, Mountain, Cliff-face or Jungle),
(e) for troops (other than Psiloi or Light Horse) any bad going (except marsh) it is not already at least partly in (see figure 21b).
It is destroyed [12.8] if it starts with an enemy front edge in contact with its flank or rear edges, or if after turning it cannot move at all,
or if it enters any river. If a friendly or enemy element prevents further movement by fleeing Elephants or Scythed Chariots, both are destroyed." |
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Post by nangwaya on Aug 25, 2019 23:50:58 GMT
As I posted earlier:- (See rule 12.5 for recoiling into terrain that you cannot enter.
And rules 12.7 & 12.8 for fleeing troops halting when they meet bad going other than a marsh) So basically:- "Halting [12.5]: A recoiling or pushed back element whose rear edge or rear corner meets terrain it cannot enter, a battlefield edge,
friends it cannot pass through or push back, an enemy, or a city, fort or camp, (or a city gate – see FAQ) ends its move there (see figure 19b).
Recoil destruction: An element already in such contact with any of these cannot recoil move back and is destroyed instead (see figure 20f)."And if fleeing:- "It stops [12.7] before completing its move and lines up if its front edge (or front corner only) contacts any of:-
(a) enemy (whom it will fight next bound), (b) friends it cannot pass through (as specified on page 9.5), (c) a city, fort or camp,
(d) a waterway (or any other type of impassable terrain, such as a Lake, Mountain, Cliff-face or Jungle),
(e) for troops (other than Psiloi or Light Horse) any bad going (except marsh) it is not already at least partly in (see figure 21b).
It is destroyed [12.8] if it starts with an enemy front edge in contact with its flank or rear edges, or if after turning it cannot move at all,
or if it enters any river. If a friendly or enemy element prevents further movement by fleeing Elephants or Scythed Chariots, both are destroyed." That being said, then these new terrain pieces are wicked! Lots of interesting things to think about at the start and during the game.
Gotta go try this.
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Post by jim1973 on Aug 26, 2019 12:09:28 GMT
Hi stevie.
Do you think you could add a PDF of your random terrain to the Wiki?
Jim
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Post by stevie on Aug 26, 2019 12:37:00 GMT
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