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Post by gaelyann on Nov 12, 2017 22:09:52 GMT
OK,
just to be sure I get it right :
1) unit A is not in contact with any enemy unit.
2) during the enemy's movement phase, enemy unit B moves into legal flank contact with unit A (flank contact and corner-to-corner)
3) then, during the same movement phase, enemy unit C moves into legal frontal contact with unit A.
at the end of the enemy movement phase, unit A does not have to turn to face the first unit that contacted it (enemy unit B), because it is already in frontal contact with enemy unit C, even though enemy unit C contacted unit A after enemy unit B.
right or wrong ?
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Post by gregorius on Nov 13, 2017 0:15:32 GMT
That is correct.
Cheers,
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Post by twrnz on Nov 13, 2017 4:47:47 GMT
This is correct for single elements.
Groups contacting a single element “A” can change things a little.
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Post by gaelyann on Nov 13, 2017 9:13:35 GMT
This is correct for single elements. Groups contacting a single element “A” can change things a little. How so ? Thank you for your answers, by the way. |
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Post by ronisan on Nov 13, 2017 16:29:26 GMT
Hello gaelyann,
the rules say:
"Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact (see p.10), contacted elements conform at contact."
... that means ... if a group contacts a single element on its side edge, it turns and conforms to the group instantly and does not wait until the end of the bound!
Cheers,
Ronald.
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Post by gaelyann on Nov 13, 2017 21:12:56 GMT
Hello gaelyann, the rules say: "Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact (see p.10), contacted elements conform at contact."
... that means ... if a group contacts a single element on its side edge, it turns and conforms to the group instantly and does not wait until the end of the bound! Cheers, Ronald. hum... Doesn't that sentence say exactly the opposite ? Doesn,'t "Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact" Mean that the element has to conform only when it's a frontal contact ? All that is so confusing... |
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Post by stevie on Nov 14, 2017 0:30:56 GMT
Hello gaelyann, the rules say: "Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact (see p.10), contacted elements conform at contact."
... that means ... if a group contacts a single element on its side edge, it turns and conforms to the group instantly and does not wait until the end of the bound! Cheers, Ronald. hum... Doesn't that sentence say exactly the opposite ? Doesn,'t "Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact" Mean that the element has to conform only when it's a frontal contact ? All that is so confusing... Page 9 paragraph 9 says:- “One party moves the minimum distance to so conform. Contactors conform using their tactical move, but an extra sideways slide of less than 1 BW is allowed to conform after contacting an enemy front-edge.” So if you contact (i.e touch) an enemy front-edge, you get an extra free sideways slide. If you contact/touch them anywhere else, you have use your tactical move to conform and line-up. Note that the free slide is sideways only, not in any other direction, so to conform and line-up when using it means your front-edge must be parallel and therefore touching the enemy front-edge. Page 9 paragraph 10 says:- “A single element contacting a single element conforms to it. A single element or group contacting a group conforms to that group. A single element contacted by a group conforms to it (unless itself entirely in bad and/or rough going, then the group conforms). “ (Brackets added for extra clarity)So the ‘contactors’ (i.e the moving troops) do not always have to conform and line-up… …sometimes those ‘contacted’ (i.e the stationary troops) must do so instead. Either way, whoever has to conform and line-up must do so on contact when they first touch (unless they are turning to the flank or rear, then they must wait until after the end of the movement phase as described on page 10 paragraph 1). ---Later Edit: What follows in red below is incorrect. The correct interpretation if further down this page----Now it gets confusing...
What Ronald said is not strictly true, and perhaps I can clarify things by using his diagrams, which are better than mine:-
In this example a moving group has contacted a single element, which must instantly conform on contact.
But as it must conform to it's flank, it will have to wait until the end of the movement phase.
So how can it conform on contact if it cannot turn to face just yet?
What does it do?
A strict reading of the rules results in the following picture:-
Here it has conformed on contact, as it should, but has not yet turned to face, which it will do after the move phase ends.
Now some people (myself included) find this all a bit unnecessary, and simply turn the single element straight away on contact.
But technically, a strict interpretation of the rules says this is what you should do.Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest June 2017 FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by twrnz on Nov 14, 2017 3:02:11 GMT
Very useful diagrams Stevie. They illustrate a complex part of the rules well.
Gaelyann, that was the exact point I was trying to make, the other day. Sorry, I couldn’t respond earlier.
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Post by zygul on Nov 14, 2017 9:24:44 GMT
hum... Doesn't that sentence say exactly the opposite ? Doesn,'t "Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact" Mean that the element has to conform only when it's a frontal contact ? All that is so confusing... Page 9 paragraph 9 says:- “One party moves the minimum distance to so conform. Contactors conform using their tactical move, but an extra sideways slide of less than 1 BW is allowed to conform after contacting an enemy front-edge.” So if you contact (i.e touch) an enemy front-edge, you get an extra free sideways slide. If you contact/touch them anywhere else, you have use your tactical move to conform and line-up. Note that the free slide is sideways only, not in any other direction, so to conform and line-up when using it means your front-edge must be parallel and therefore touching the enemy front-edge. Page 9 paragraph 10 says:- “A single element contacting a single element conforms to it. A single element or group contacting a group conforms to that group. A single element contacted by a group conforms to it (unless itself entirely in bad and/or rough going, then the group conforms). “ (Brackets added for extra clarity)So the ‘contactors’ (i.e the moving troops) do not always have to conform and line-up… …sometimes those ‘contacted’ (i.e the stationary troops) must do so instead. Either way, whoever has to conform and line-up must do so on contact when they first touch (unless they are turning to the flank or rear, then they must wait until after the end of the movement phase as described on page 10 paragraph 1). Now it gets confusing... What Ronald said is not strictly true, and perhaps I can clarify things by using his diagrams, which are better than mine:- In this example a moving group has contacted a single element, which must instantly conform on contact. But as it must conform to it's flank, it will have to wait until the end of the movement phase. So how can it conform on contact if it cannot turn to face just yet? What does it do? A strict reading of the rules results in the following picture:- Here it has conformed on contact, as it should, but has not yet turned to face, which it will do after the move phase ends. Now some people (myself included) find this all a bit unnecessary, and simply turn the single element straight away on contact. But technically, a strict interpretation of the rules says this is what you should do. Technically, it isn't an 'interpretation' of the rule because it is the actual rule so it doesn't really matter if some people find it unnecessary either because they don't understand it or don't like it. If everybody decided to change the rules when it suited them then how would you be able to play DBA other than solitaire? For example, I don't think it's a good idea for your group to contact my unit's flank edge when it could contact it frontally instead so I want to change the rules to force you to do that. Just think, it would save a whole bunch of unnecessary conforming on contact rules and simplify the whole process yada, yada , yada. Or why not start playing the game in 'real time' so that when your slow, plodding, knights (that you love using as an example) try to clumsily execute a flanking manoeuvre against my nimble psiloi, the latter can quickly pivot and attack the knights in the flank instead. Wasn't that more or less what happened at Pharsalus? Perhaps the rules are the way they are to take that sort of thing into account. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest June 2017 FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by zygul on Nov 14, 2017 9:33:35 GMT
Technically, it isn't an 'interpretation' of the rule because it is the actual rule so it doesn't really matter if some people find it unnecessary either because they don't understand it or don't like it. If everybody decided to change the rules when it suited them then how would you be able to play DBA other than solitaire? For example, I don't think it's a good idea for your group to contact my unit's flank edge when it could contact it frontally instead so I want to change the rules to force you to do that. Just think, it would save a whole bunch of unnecessary conforming on contact rules and simplify the whole process yada, yada , yada. Or why not start playing the game in 'real time' so that when your slow, plodding, knights (that you love using as an example) try to clumsily execute a flanking manoeuvre against my nimble psiloi, the latter can quickly pivot and attack the knights in the flank instead. Wasn't that more or less what happened at Pharsalus? Perhaps the rules are the way they are to take that sort of thing into account.
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Post by stevie on Nov 14, 2017 10:58:10 GMT
Zygul, you have completely misunderstood my use of the word “unnecessary”. I meant it in the following context:- Player ‘A’: “Right then, this bound on my left wing I’m moving this, this, and that group into contact with the flank edges of your single elements here, here, and there.” Player ‘B’: “Very well, but I have to stretch across the table to reach them. Do you want me to just conform their edges to your groups for now and then fully turn them into full mutual front-edge contact after the end of the move phase?” Player ‘A’: “Naaa, nothing else is happening on that side of the table, so you might as well save a bit of time and just move them into full contact now. So, as I still have a few PIP’s left, on my right wing I’ll move…” Not ‘technically’ what should happen, but something that frequently does. By the way, this thread is about the existing DBA 3.0 contact and conforming rules. If you want to discuss for or against suggestions for possible future contact and conforming rules, I will be happy to do so in the “Turning-to-Face in a future version of DBA 3.1” thread. See you there.  Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest June 2017 FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by gaelyann on Nov 14, 2017 14:37:13 GMT
Thank you stevie and twrnz (how would you prononce thant ?), I was asking only about turning to face in the specific case I was talking about, and not about conforming a unit contacted by a group, but your explanations have made that point clerarer as well, so thank you again.
And yes, I made this thread specifically to get an answer about that specific point about actual rules of DBA v3.
So if everyone shares that interpretation of the rules, you may lock this thread (in fact, it would be nice to add a few diagrams to explain these kind of cases, either in the FAQ or in a specific document. I believe a few more diagrams in the rules would have helped understand better these rules).
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Post by lkmjbc on Nov 14, 2017 17:46:23 GMT
Thank you stevie and twrnz (how would you prononce thant ?), I was asking only about turning to face in the specific case I was talking about, and not about conforming a unit contacted by a group, but your explanations have made that point clerarer as well, so thank you again. And yes, I made this thread specifically to get an answer about that specific point about actual rules of DBA v3. So if everyone shares that interpretation of the rules, you may lock this thread (in fact, it would be nice to add a few diagrams to explain these kind of cases, either in the FAQ or in a specific document. I believe a few more diagrams in the rules would have helped understand better these rules). More diagrams in the rules? Yes, certainly... Diagrams in the FAQ... Probably not. We've considered them... but decided not to use them... (the reasons are legion). We may change our minds... It kind of depends on what happens with DBA over the next few years. Joe Collins |
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Post by bob on Nov 14, 2017 19:07:57 GMT
I do not play as the diagram in Stevie's post suggests. I believe, and play, that "conform" means to line up front edge and front corners, to permit a combat. No matter what angle a group contacts a single element, the single element always turns to fact the contacting element in the group for close combat. There is no two stage process as suggested.
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Post by stevie on Nov 14, 2017 20:12:19 GMT
Ah…wait a minute…I think I see what you’re getting at Bob. Page 9 paragraph 10, last sentence, says:- “ Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact, contacted elements conform on contact.” So the single element does not conform instantly on contact, because it’s contacted on the flank…it only conforms once, after the end of the move phase, when it turns to face and lines-up in full mutual face-to-face contact with the group just prior to the combat phase, like this:-  My apologies everyone. Bob is right and Stevie wrong. So please ignore my previous diagrams. Thanks Bob. (Oh well, I can’t be right all the time! 
And guess what...those "Detailed Crib Sheets for DBA 3.0" in the Fanaticus Wiki were right all along!)Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest June 2017 FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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