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Post by goragrad on Nov 2, 2017 7:42:06 GMT
Recently picked up a light and a heavy Indian Chariot manufactured by Irregular Miniatures.
Both come with standards to be mounted at the rear of the chariot.
My question regards the types of standards - the heavy came with a pole with an ankh at the top and the light with a pole with a classic Celtic/Roman boar.
Are these appropriate or would cloth banners be the correct choice?
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Post by timurilank on Nov 2, 2017 9:48:08 GMT
Recently picked up a light and a heavy Indian Chariot manufactured by Irregular Miniatures. Both come with standards to be mounted at the rear of the chariot. My question regards the types of standards - the heavy came with a pole with an ankh at the top and the light with a pole with a classic Celtic/Roman boar. Are these appropriate or would cloth banners be the correct choice? Indian standards are well covered in ‘Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars’ by Duncan Head. Banners have blazons with crescent moons and stars and others had animal images on poles in gold or silver metal.
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Post by paddy649 on Nov 2, 2017 19:11:32 GMT
"Ancient Indian Warfare" by Sarva Darman Singh talks about those standards saying that they were surmounted by the hero's emblem: a large ape, a palm tree, a golden altar with water pot and bow, elephants, 2 tambourines and a lion all get mentioned. These are probably in silver or gold. Below the emblem flies a banner or pennons; one boasts a lions tail. He says nothing about what images appear on the banners, they could just be brightly coloured or echo the emblem on the standard. Nothing really survives.
There appear to have been 3 grades of charioteers, in order the atirathin, the maharathin and the rathin (or ratnin). The atirathin were the top grade had the tallest standard with a white & gold flag and appears to have carried a white bow, worn white headgear, be adorned with a gold garland, white umberella and while horse. So white and gold = highest rank = princes. Next highest are maharathin (also a generic Indian term for charioteer) or nobles and these I do with gold with a "heraldic colour" i.e. gold & red or gold & green etc.... Finally the Rathin appear to have been the lower rank of nobility or the sons of higher nobility these I have marked using silver.
Hope this helps.
Paddy
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Post by goragrad on Nov 2, 2017 21:43:22 GMT
Appreciate the responses - Timurilank reminded me to recheck AMPW which does mention a boar. Although as I note the Irregular looks very European.
As to the ankh/tau cross, when I websearch it as a Indian or Hindu symbol I end up on Arayan sites. Not sure how reliable they are. On the other hand in Lord of Light (based on Hindu mythology) Zelazny employs a vehicle in the form of one a vehicle for a major character.
As with swastikas which are quite common in Hinduism and Buddhism it would be nice to get some solid historic examples of their usage.
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Post by paddy649 on Nov 2, 2017 23:08:47 GMT
The Vedic or pre-Vedic periods were before Hinduism, Buddhism or even Jainism took their current forms. Jainism frequently uses swastikas (often left facing and square on not right facing and point down) but I haven't heard of them appearing on Ancient Indian flags or banners.... and can't see even a weak argument for anything like that before 300BC and the height of the classical period. Go later than this and you may have more justification.
Vedic forms of belief were the precursors to modern Hinduism and the principle symbols included scared fire, the sun, Indra, sacred fig trees and cows. However, I can find little evidence of religion and kingdoms being connected in a way that Islamic and Christian Kingdoms were so can't see why religious iconography would have appeared on the battlefield in a pronounced form.
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Post by goragrad on Nov 3, 2017 0:08:51 GMT
Well, as I am looking at Vedic to Greco-Indian, there is a lot of classical there.
An article some time ago on National Review by a writer who spent some time in India noted that in the modern era swastikas are placed on vehicles and other items (new computers in the office) for good luck. I have seen illustrations of Tibetan yaks with swastikas on their harness. Obviously cultures evolve over time, but display of various forms has been around forever.
So not per se as standards, but I put miscellaneous symbols on elephants and chariots in an attempt to mimic what I have seen in illustrations. Not to the degree or as well drawn as those illustrations, but as a means of giving them a bit more character.
As to the modern association of the swastika with Nazism, I have an aversion to banning symbols due to their misuse or because some find an aspect of their history to be distasteful. Particularly when to a majority of the world's population that association is not even considered or is very minor.
Besides adding some good luck symbols to my gaming elements wouldn't hurt...
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Post by paddy649 on Nov 3, 2017 0:30:02 GMT
Yep. If Greco-Indian then Hinduism and Jainism would be in full swing - so can't see a problem with your logic.
Just posted pics of my Indians - sorry no swastikas there - must mean bad luck with the dice!
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Post by scottrussell on Nov 3, 2017 22:36:35 GMT
Well, as I am looking at Vedic to Greco-Indian, there is a lot of classical there. An article some time ago on National Review by a writer who spent some time in India noted that in the modern era swastikas are placed on vehicles and other items (new computers in the office) for good luck. I have seen illustrations of Tibetan yaks with swastikas on their harness. Obviously cultures evolve over time, but display of various forms has been around forever. So not per se as standards, but I put miscellaneous symbols on elephants and chariots in an attempt to mimic what I have seen in illustrations. Not to the degree or as well drawn as those illustrations, but as a means of giving them a bit more character. As to the modern association of the swastika with Nazism, I have an aversion to banning symbols due to their misuse or because some find an aspect of their history to be distasteful. Particularly when to a majority of the world's population that association is not even considered or is very minor. Besides adding some good luck symbols to my gaming elements wouldn't hurt... Is it not the case that the Indian swastikas are a mirror image of the Nazi ones? They always seem to look that way in the illustrations. Scott
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Post by goragrad on Nov 6, 2017 5:35:25 GMT
I have seen both. They are horizontal though.
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Post by paulhannah on May 18, 2023 16:27:04 GMT
Stumbled across this old thread. That Ganesha / pink elephant standard (above) is a riot. (Guessing it's relatively modern.) Is there some Indian or South Asian army for which it might be even plausibly appropriate?
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