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Post by bob on Oct 11, 2017 0:44:48 GMT
I am confused by Stevie's example here. The red group moves forward and contacts the single element. The contacted element immediately conforms to the group. At the end of Movement phase, the contacting element (one element of the group) is lined up with an enemy element. Where's the paradox?
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Post by primuspilus on Oct 11, 2017 1:31:43 GMT
I am with Bob on this one. Phil seems to carefully differentiate between "must be lined up" and "must line up". He makes judicious use of the switch between the active and passive voices.
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Post by stevie on Oct 11, 2017 1:48:38 GMT
I am confused by Stevie's example here. The red group moves forward and contacts the single element. The contacted element immediately conforms to the group. At the end of Movement phase, the contacting element (one element of the group) is lined up with an enemy element. Where's the paradox? , It is only not a paradox if you agree with me that rule 9.9 is wrong. It's not the contacting troops that have to line-up, as rule 9.9 implies, but the conforming troops as mentioned in rule 9.10. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest June 2017 FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by stevie on Oct 11, 2017 3:08:58 GMT
Actually, Bob has reminded me of another inconsistency with the "Moving into Contact" rules.
The very last sentence of page 9 paragraph 10 says:-
"Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact, contacted elements conform on contact."
No they don't.
When a moving red group makes contact with a stationary blue group, it's not the stationary blue group (i.e. those contacted) that conform on contact, but the moving red group (i.e. the contacting troops), as per rule 9.10.
Likewise, when a single moving red element contacts a single stationary blue element, it's not the stationary blue element (i.e. those contacted) that conform on contact, but the moving red element (i.e. the contacting troops), just as rule 9.10 states.
Again this rule should read as:-
"Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact, contacted conforming elements conform on contact."
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Post by ronisan on Oct 11, 2017 6:53:21 GMT
Hello Stevie,
Wow ... thank you. Now you've realized my major problem :-)
(How does this bloody 'quoting' work ? ... aaaaah ... Quote:
The rule on page 9 paragraph 10 says:-
“A single element contacted by a group conforms to it (unless in rough or bad going, etc…)”
Fair enough…the group is moving, it has made contact, but the single element must do the conforming.
However, the rule above this on page 9 paragraph 9 says:-
“At the end of the bound’s movement phase, the contacting element, or at least one element of the contacting
group, must be lined-up with an enemy element, etc…”
This is implying that the troops doing the contacting must do the conforming.
So rule 9.10 says the single element must conform…but rule 9.9 says the contacting group must conform!
They can’t both be right!
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Post by ronisan on Oct 11, 2017 7:24:30 GMT
@ medievalthomas
Hello TomT,
you're really telling us, that in a 142 pages rulebook, there wasn't enough space to add a few lines
which could have explained, that "corner-to-edge or edge-to-corner contact" is allowed?
Cheers,
Ronald.
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Post by ronisan on Oct 11, 2017 8:43:15 GMT
Actually, Bob has reminded me of another inconsistency with the "Moving into Contact" rules. The very last sentence of page 9 paragraph 10 says:- "Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact, contacted elements conform on contact."
Hello Stevie, maybe that is meant to be after movement and after combat? ... e.g. if your pursuing element runs into a new enemy element?Cheers, Ronald. |
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Post by stevie on Oct 11, 2017 10:02:14 GMT
Actually, Bob has reminded me of another inconsistency with the "Moving into Contact" rules. The very last sentence of page 9 paragraph 10 says:- "Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact, contacted elements conform on contact."
Hello Stevie, maybe that is meant to be after movement and after combat? ... e.g. if your pursuing element runs into a new enemy element?Cheers, Ronald. Could be...but page 9 paragraph 10 does not say that. Anyway, page 12 paragraph 11 describes 'pursuit contact'.
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Post by stevie on Oct 11, 2017 10:14:53 GMT
Medievalthomas, I think I may have the answer to your question about do the original moving elements have to conform as much as possible… …but you’re not going to like it. Let us assume that the following principles are correct:- (i) There is no such thing as an ‘illegal contact’…it’s only the failure to line-up properly that prevents contact. (ii) It doesn't matter who initiates the contact…it’s only the conforming troops that must line-up properly. (iii) Unless turning to face, conforming elements line-up and conform at first contact. Time for some more of my pictures I’m afraid. Consider the following situation:-  It is the red player’s bound, but he only has 1 PIP left. His plan is to advance the group into frontal contact, then use the free sideways slide to line-up. This would create one big red group that would overlap the blue element on both flanks. Well, this is what he would like to do. However, the rules prevent this otherwise cunning plan. Here’s what actually happens:-  He moment the red group touches the blue element, it needs to be determined who will conform. In this case, as a group contacting a single element in good going, the blue troops must conform. And as conforming troops line-up and conform at contact, it is the blue element that slides sideways. So the question of whether the red group should try to conform as much as possible is irrelevant. The option to do so was taken out of the red player’s hand the instant contact was made. And if the blue element had been part of a group, only then must the red player try to conform as much as he can. Because conforming troops can only end the move phase in contact if they are properly lined-up (rule 9.9).
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Post by primuspilus on Oct 11, 2017 10:48:50 GMT
Actually, Bob has reminded me of another inconsistency with the "Moving into Contact" rules. The very last sentence of page 9 paragraph 10 says:- "Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact, contacted elements conform on contact."No they don't. When a moving red group makes contact with a stationary blue group, it's not the stationary blue group (i.e. those contacted) that conform on contact, but the moving red group (i.e. the contacting troops), as per rule 9.10. Likewise, when a single moving red element contacts a single stationary blue element, it's not the stationary blue element (i.e. those contacted) that conform on contact, but the moving red element (i.e. the contacting troops), just as rule 9.10 states. Again this rule should read as:- "Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact, contacted conforming elements conform on contact."
Hi Stevie, again I read the rule slightly differently. Phil is really being overly economical with verbiage. He could have written "contacted troops that are required to conform, do so upon contact". Believe it or not, he is applying pure math logic here. If an element is not required to conform, then the rule is vacuous. If it is, then it does so on contact. Unless takend in the flank/rear. The rule you quote is in place to highlight not the conforming behavioir, but to contrast between "turning to face" a flank contact, and not. And of course, if my group makes flank contact with one of your group's elements, i.e. I hit the end of your line, with a group coming in at an angle what happens? Our group have always read the rule this way. He has also chosen not to define a troop class as "conformers", which he could have done, as you have, and which may allay some confusion. |
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Post by ronisan on Oct 11, 2017 11:34:03 GMT
@ Stevie
Hi,
I'm absolutely "conform" to your explanations! :-)
Cheers Ronald.
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Post by stevie on Oct 11, 2017 12:12:14 GMT
Hi Ronald, It's good to see that our ' contact' has turned out to be useful. 
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Post by ronisan on Oct 11, 2017 12:20:20 GMT
As for the notorious diagram 13d…is it really any different from the following diagrams?:- Figure 13a: Unable to line-up Figure 13b: Unable to line-up Figure 13c: Unable to line-up The rule on page 9 paragraph 10 (‘If Conforming Prevented’) seems pretty clear.
Hi Stevie, In figure 13a, the moving element made contact with his front edge (partially) to the enemy front edge -> unable to conform -> contacted enemy element has the choice (conforming or fighting with -1). In figure 13b, the moving elemenst made contact with their front edge (partially) to the enemy front edge -> unable to conform -> contacted enemy element has the choice (conforming or fighting with -1). In figure 13c, the moving elements made contact with their front edge (partially) to the enemy front edge -> unable to conform -> contacted enemy element can't conform either (must fighting with -1). In figure 13d, the moving elements made contact with their front edge to the enemy corners (!?) ... for me, that is a great difference. Cheers, Ronald. |
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Post by ronisan on Oct 11, 2017 12:32:36 GMT
Hi Ronald, It's good to see that our ' contact' has turned out to be useful.
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Post by stevie on Oct 11, 2017 12:57:42 GMT
Hello there primuspilus, I'll try to answer you as briefly as I can ( Ha! That will be a first for me! ) The very last sentence of page 9 paragraph 10 says:- "Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact, contacted elements conform on contact."No they don't. Again this rule should read as:- "Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact, contacted conforming elements conform on contact."
Hi Stevie, again I read the rule slightly differently. Phil is really being overly economical with verbiage. He could have written "contacted troops that are required to conform, do so upon contact". Believe it or not, he is applying pure math logic here. If an element is not required to conform, then the rule is vacuous. If it is, then it does so on contact. Unless taken in the flank/rear. Well why don't the rules SAY that! The idea of a written language is to convey information...and this is especially important when it comes to describing how a set of rules work. It's no good having a written rule and then saying "oh, it might say that, but we all know it means the complete opposite..." And it doesn't need a long winded phrase like "...contacted troops that are required to conform, do so upon contact." Just use a single correct word to describe the situation, such as ' conforming' instead of ' contacted'. There...bish bosh...job done...crystal clear. The rule you quote is in place to highlight not the conforming behavioir, but to contrast between "turning to face" a flank contact, and not. And of course, if my group makes flank contact with one of your group's elements, i.e. I hit the end of your line, with a group coming in at an angle what happens? Easy peasey...fully described in the last sentence of paragraph 10 on page 9, and on page 10 paragraph 1 (but you already knew that). Anyway, changing a single word to convey the true situation like this... "Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact, contacted conforming elements conform on contact." ...would in no way infringe on the "Turning to Face" rules. Our group have always read the rule this way. He has also chosen not to define a troop class as "conformers", which he could have done, as you have, and which may allay some confusion. I have a quick question for you. Do your group agree with those three principles that I posted, and have taken the liberty of repeating here:- (i) There is no such thing as an ‘illegal contact’…it’s only the failure to line-up properly that prevents contact. (ii) It doesn't matter who initiates the contact…it’s only the conforming troops that must line-up properly. (iii) Unless turning to face, conforming elements line-up and conform at first contact. ...even though some of the rules as written in "Moving into Contact" on page 9 are contradictory and say the complete opposite? |
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