Contact and Conforming

Best of luck, and do please let us know how they interpret the infamous diagram 13d. 

By the way...I've edited and added a few more diagram references to my previous post for extra clarity.


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timurilank

Hello Robert,

the tournament is not in Ulm ... it's organized by one of the "Ulm-guys"!
It takes place in "Geislingen an der Steige" north of Ulm!

I'm sorry, I've no idea of any similar events near Wuppertal.


Cheers,
Ronald.

Ah…I think we are both using different words to describe an identical situation.

Actually, both yourself and I are talking about the same thing.


And I agree.
Element 'A' in diagram 10 and element 'A1' in diagram 12a are exactly the same...
...the only difference is in diagram 10 it has run out of movement, so cannot pivot, while in diagram 12a it still has some move left so can pivot.
And the reason why they need to pivot is so they can end the movement phase in a proper formation as per the rules on page 9 paragraph 9.
(In my 2nd picture, I did say "…one party or the other still needs to conform, if they can.
If the conforming element lacks enough movement to conform, then the contact cannot occur.")


Remember, 'conforming' is an attempt to end the move phase in a certain position as per the rules on page 9 paragraph 9.
This can be achieved by sliding sideways (if front-edges are touching), or by wheeling, or by pivoting, or even by just moving forwards.
It's the final position that matters...not how you get there.

I’m using the word ‘conforming’ in the sense of adjusting an element’s position in order to precisely match another element.
So ‘conforming’ means exactly the same as ‘lining-up’ or ‘aligned’.
I just prefer using the word ‘conforming’ when elements are touching, and using ‘lining-up’ or 'aligned' when they don’t touch.
Diagram 11 shows an example of ‘lining-up’ or ‘aligning’…none of the elements are actually touching.

But ‘conforming’ doesn’t always mean both front-edges must be touching.
It also covers situations when a front-edge is touching a side or rear edge.
In diagram 9c for example, a spear element is conforming/lining-up/aligning to the rear of an enemy cavalry element.
And diagram 9a shows the correct ‘legal’ way an element can conform/line-up/align when flanking.

Anyway, using a single word such as ‘conforming’ is much less of a mouth-full than saying:-
“being-in-close-combat-with-a-front-edge-in-contact-and-opposing-corners-also-touching-each-other”. 



Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest June 2017 FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes

Quite correct that conforming can be accomplished in three ways only one of which is front edge to front edge. Something like this would have been helpful - if we (as I do now) had unlimited space:

"After moving into contact with an opposing Stand, a Stand must attempt to conform in one of three ways:
(1) If contacting front to front: full mutual front edge contact;
(2) If front edge to rear edge: full front edge to rear edge contact;
(3) If front edge to side edge: front edge contact with an opponent’s side edge and mutual front corner contact.



In the diagram the HF Stand is in legal contact with the MM Stand as per (1) above. The LF Stand is in legal contact with the MF Stand as per (3) above."

Glad to hear about the 28mm tournament - but a bit too far too attend. We are doing a 28mm event in Atlanta on October 21.

Let me know how it turned out and how players handled basing in 28mm - I'm working up a universal basing scheme for 28mm and would love player imput.

TomT

Hello Stevie,

the 28mm-Tournament in ULM was great!
There were 16 players ... and I'm quite contend with my 3rd rank   :-)

Discussing figure 13d with different participants at ULM led us to the following conclusion:
Contact is allowed only like shown in figure 9a.
In the (exceptional) case of figure 13d, the attacker ("A-C") is allowed to contact using just one PIP for his entire group.
It is looked upon as a kind of "punishment" for players, who play "unfair" ... in a way to place their elements/groups the way the defender ("X/W" and "Y/Z") did.
So he has to conform or to accept the overlaps against him.
But figure 13d is said to be in contradiction/opposite to what is written in the rules.


Cheers,
Ronald.

Hi there Ronald,

So, third in a 16 player tournament…nice!
I would be interested to know what army you used, who defeated you, and (more importantly) why you lost.
More details please! 


“Contact is allowed only like shown in figure 9a.”
Hmmm...I would rephrase that to read:-
“Elements can only end a movement phase as shown in figure 9a".

As I said before, ‘contact’ is only part way through the move…’lining-up’ (what I call ‘conforming’) comes next.
After all, none of elements in the diagrams below stop moving and look like 9a when they first made contact:-
        Figure 12a: Conforming
        Figure 12c: Group contact and lining-up
        Figure 12d: Group contact and lining-up
The lining-up rules on page 9 paragraph 9 says “At the end of the bound’s movement phase…”, not when they first touch.

As for the notorious diagram 13d…is it really any different from the following diagrams?:-
        Figure 13a: Unable to line-up
        Figure 13b: Unable to line-up
        Figure 13c: Unable to line-up
The rule on page 9 paragraph 10 (‘If Conforming Prevented’) seems pretty clear.



Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest June 2017 FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes

I see what you are saying Tom…but before we look into that I would like to bring something to everyone’s attention.
I think I’ve found a contradiction in the moving into contact rules.

Consider the following picture, where a moving red group makes contact with a single blue element in good going.
Who conforms?:-



The rule on page 9 paragraph 10 says:-
“A single element contacted by a group conforms to it (unless in rough or bad going, etc…)”
Fair enough…the group is moving, it has made contact, but the single element must do the conforming.

However, the rule above this on page 9 paragraph 9 says:-
“At the end of the bound’s movement phase, the contacting element, or at least one element of the contacting
group, must be lined-up with an enemy element, etc…”
This is implying that the troops doing the contacting must do the conforming.

So rule 9.10 says the single element must conform…but rule 9.9 says the contacting group must conform!
They can’t both be right!

I think the answer to this paradox is in the words used in rule 9.9.
The word ‘move’ is not used.
Rule 9.9 does not say that the contacting group has to do the moving to conform, only that at the end of the movement phase the contacting group must be lined-up with an enemy element.
Someone has to do the moving to conform, and rule 9.10 says it’s the responsibly of the single element to do so.

(Frankly, I think it would have been much clearer if rule 9.9 said:-
“At the end of the bound’s movement phase, the contacting conforming element, or at least one element of the contacting conforming group, must be lined-up with an enemy element…”)

Sooooo…if what I have written above is correct, let’s get back to Tom’s question.
It is the duty of the conforming troops to do the moving in order to end the movement phase correctly lined-up.

In other words:-
If the enemy has to conform, then just make any kind of contact and let the enemy worry about conforming! 



Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest June 2017 FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes