Recoil of supporting element after fighting

Actually, the rule you are referring to is on page 11, paragraph 4:-
(The very last sentence under “Combat Outcome”)

COMBAT OUTCOMES [11.4]
An element whose total is equal to or less than that of its opponent may need to make an immediate outcome move, which depends on its own type and that of the opponent in close combat with its front edge or shooting at it.
Shooting disregarded: An element shooting without being shot at disregards an unfavourable outcome.
Flank and rear attacks: A supporting element in close combat against an enemy element’s flank or rear recoils if the friendly element in combat with that enemy’s front recoils, flees or is destroyed (see diagram 19c).

Note the bits I’ve underlined: “in close combat against an enemy element's flank or rear”.

And in the case you described, Spear 'B' is not in contact with the flank or rear of Blade 'D'.



Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest June 2017 FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes

OK, sorry for the confusion of word

I was speaking about Side support and not Flank support

If B is providing a Side support to A and A must recoil, does B will recoil too ?
Even if B is in front contact (in fight) with D ? Will it cancel this fight, then ?

Because on my french version of the rules, I'm wondering if there's a confusion between Side support and Flank support, too.


Thanks, 

Considering the number of discussions there have been over what the rules mean in English, I'm just in awe of the person who had the courage to translate these into another language!

Stand up and take a bow that person.

(The bow can either be a 3Bw or 4Bw!)

This thread got me to thinking about Phil's use of various words related to helping elements in combat.

"Rear Support" typically refers to certain friendly elements touching the rear of an element in combat. Rear Support gives a +1 or +3 to the friendly front element.
Pikes, Warband, and Light Horse can get Rear Support from like types.
"Flank Support" typically refers to certain friendly elements touching the side of an element in combat. Flank Support gives a +1 to the friendly side element. Only 1 flank support per combat.
Spears supported by Spears or “Solid” Blades and “Solid” Bows supported by “Solid” Blades.

Double deep elements also count as supporting. They :
"... fight in close combat against most foot as if the rear element was providing rear support." Obviously, the second rank recoils with the whole element:)

Overlap refers to enemy elements contacting an element on its front corner, or side edge, when the element is in frontal contact with an enemy. Each overlap gives a -1 to the element in combat.
There are two overlap positions.
1. Enemy element is in front corner to front corner contact, and not itself in front edge combat.
2. Enemy element is in side to side contact and can itself be in front edge combat.

Shooting elements do not "support" each other. The term is not used in the rules in this context. A shooting element can "Aid" another shooting type.
"A second or third element shooting at the same target aids the shooting of the nearest by providing it with a tactical factor instead of being resolved separately."
"-1 for each second or third enemy element aiding opposing element’s shooting,"

Close Combat is resolved between elements in front to front, corner to corner contact. Elements can contact enemy with their front on enemy Flank or Rear. This is not usually "Support" but is referred to as close combat. However,
"When an element is in close combat both to front and to flank or rear . . . only it and the enemy element in front fight each other."

Thus an element in combat to its front, can also have a flank contact and a rear rear contact. Now Phil's otherwise consistent wording fails. This is where the original confusion of this thread might have arisen. He writes:
"A supporting element in close combat against an enemy element’s flank or rear recoils if the friendly element in combat with that enemy’s front recoils, flees or is destroyed."

He refers to a flank or rear combat element in contact as "supporting." These recoil if the element in frontal combat loses.

Thus there are 4 words for multiple elements in combat situations: non-contact support, overlap, aiding, and contact support.

Good discussion Stevie. I was only thinking of the element to element relationships. Your point about attacking an city, fort or camp is good. However I would not call that an example of overlap. Isn't it rather three elements attacking the entity, with those not computing the combat as tactical factors for the combatant? Indeed, Phil's words are:
"Troops assaulting or defending these use their combat factor against foot and do not count overlaps or flank or rear support."
The functional result is like overlap, in that the city, fort or camp receives a minus one for each element not fighting. So in Phil's lexicon, this is not an overlap.

Front edge contact of an enemy element on an element's flank or rear, your second point, it's definitely not an "overlap". Again, The positioning is the functional equivalent of an overlap in that it gives a minus one, but not called an overlap by Phil.

I believe it is important to be careful in the language usage with these rules. This situation is a flank or rear attack or close combat. Phil explicitly excludes this relationship from being an overlap. Note the use of the word "or " below.
"-1 For each enemy element either overlapping or in front edge and front corner-to-front corner contact with flank or in full front edge contact with rear, ..."

When someone writes about an overlap that they have, I don't want to think that it is a flank or rear attack. Your comment about war wagon overlap, being in full edge contact, is using Phil's language. Thus, I suggest Phil only uses "overlap" in four contexts.

Trying to get Phil to use consistent terminology or any terminology proved impossible. Hence we have all these made up terms like "Quick Kill" that are not in the rules but just player jargon. DBMM players use the even more monstorous "EMTLU" term. Overlap appears in the rules but covers alot ground. Flanker (meaning corner over lap), Friction Flanker (meaning side edge contact) and Hard Flanker (meaning front edge contact with side edge) are useful subterms.

TomT

The point is that we don't have a terminology - I'm just suggesting examples. Here no one likes the term "Threat Zone" and I have given up calling it that since everyone just calls it a Zone of Control (standard wargame terminology which everyone understands) - a good example of not re-inventing the wheel.

TomT