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Post by Tony Aguilar on Apr 4, 2017 19:45:01 GMT
We had a question that could not get resolved the other day. We had an element of Spear (Red) which wants to move into front contact with another Spear. It is within 2BW, but cannot make full frontal contact without the free slide. The enemy Spear (Blue) however, is partially in woods. Is the free slide allowed in this instance? See picture below:  |
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Post by martin on Apr 4, 2017 21:18:20 GMT
Can't see why not, Tony. The measured move is the less-than-2Bw to contact. The slide just follows on. Well, that's my take on it....
M
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Post by Cromwell on Apr 5, 2017 11:01:27 GMT
I agree. The woods are not impassable for spear and neither side gains an advantage
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Post by paulhannah on Apr 5, 2017 16:26:06 GMT
I can see how this one got you scratching your head, Tony. I'm glad I didn't have to rule on it in a tourney, cuz I'm just not sure.
Under Tactical Move Distances (Pg.9), "1BW [Spears]...in bad or rough going for any part of the move". (Emphasis added.) Looking just at that rule, one might conclude the move Tony described cannot be made.
But, further down on the same page, there's the free-slide rule: "an extra sideways slide of up to 1BW is allowed..." That supports the idea that that move is Kosher. Hopefully, others who know V-3 better than I can make it all clear. :-)
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Apr 5, 2017 16:51:47 GMT
Because many of the rules are scattered around, we wanted to make sure that we COULD do this.
I could not find anything in the rules that says you CAN'T but it doesn't seem right (it seems a bit abusive honestly) so I wanted to be sure.
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Post by medievalthomas on Apr 5, 2017 16:58:11 GMT
Tony:
Very good question. My first impulse was to not allow. Second impulse was to allow for this reason: troops that would fight in the real world should fight in our toy solider world. Here the two elements would really clash outside the wood and fight as much as possible. For game purposes (only) we slide em over so the fight is "neat". This is game movement not real world movement. Main effect is to lower both factors (increasing chance of kill) perhaps reflecting confused fight - spreading into woods.
Lets get feedback on what ruling players would prefer.
TomT
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Apr 5, 2017 17:04:30 GMT
Tony: Very good question. My first impulse was to not allow. Second impulse was to allow for this reason: troops that would fight in the real world should fight in our toy solider world. Here the two elements would really clash outside the wood and fight as much as possible. For game purposes (only) we slide em over so the fight is "neat". This is game movement not real world movement. Main effect is to lower both factors (increasing chance of kill) perhaps reflecting confused fight - spreading into woods. Lets get feedback on what ruling players would prefer. TomT Tom, I like your reasoning. |
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Post by bob on Apr 5, 2017 20:46:01 GMT
In other cases people have allowed the free slide independent of the other part of the move. One could rule that the max move of spear in bad going in 1 BW. So if the slide goes into the BG, then the original move would be only 1 BW. That is the only contrary ruling I can think of. But the slide is independent of all other moves so guess the move shown is acceptable.
If there were a column of spears, it would draw the single spear to conform, out of the woods.
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Post by stevie on Apr 6, 2017 14:09:06 GMT
Things can get even more complicated when groups are involved.
Take Tony Aguilar’s picture for example, but imagine that blue is a group with another element to its left, and that red is also a group with another element deeper in the wood to its left (yes, you can form groups in bad going, it’s just that you can’t move them as a group unless they are in a column or are all Ps).
What happens then?
Does the moving blue group conform by sliding into the wood, ignoring the usual group movement limitations in woods?
Do the red elements have to conform, because the blue group is ‘physically prevented’ from group moving in a wood?
Or do one of these two opposing groups have to split up in order to conform?
It all seems a bit confusing...IF you think of conforming as being part of movement.
But, as bob has pointed out, it is not.
Conforming is not part of voluntary movement; it is a separate compulsory subroutine with its own set of rules.
That’s why elements and groups can disobey the usual movement rules when they conform, such as exceeding the normal move distance, groups moving sideways, and sliding as a group in bad going.
So to go back to the example above, where a red group partially in a wood is contacted by a moving blue group:
Groups can be formed in bad going (but voluntary movement is limited, see page 8 paragraph 10)...
A moving group must conform when it contacts a non-moving/stationary group (see page 9 paragraph 10)... The moving blue group is not physically prevented (there is room to slide sideways)...
Conforming doesn’t force a group to split up (never mentioned in the rules, and see diagrams 13c and 13d)... And conforming does not obey the usual movement rules...
Therefore the blue group must slide sideways into the wood, and stays as a group.
(There is an exception to ‘compulsory’ conforming: see diagram 13a and 13e.
Basically, if the moving elements are physically prevented from conforming, because there just isn't enough room, then those contacted can choose to conform or fight as if overlapped)
Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by Dangun on Apr 7, 2017 5:54:19 GMT
Tony: Second impulse was to allow for this reason: troops that would fight in the real world should fight in our toy solider world. Here the two elements would really clash outside the wood and fight as much as possible. This is clearly not relevant, because the Spear is only allowed to move 1BW. If you believe that the free slide is part of movement, the rule says the Spear can only move 1BW. How you imagine reality to play out is not relevant, especially if you have to ignore the rules to get to your imagination. |
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Post by medievalthomas on Apr 10, 2017 18:46:36 GMT
Dangun:
Your not understanding the "free slide" (or the dread Extra Movement to Line Up name tag). The free slide never happens in the real world. Its game movement to make the fight "neater". That's why its free as it doesn't reflect real movement. In the real world if a body of troops hit at the "joint" between two bodies of enemies it would not slide to line up on one. It would fight both. We slide and count overlap as a game mechanic. The woods issue is a red herring. The free slide can cause an element/group to exceed its MA in many situations.
But to properly apply a game mechanic in an odd situation you need to understand its real world purpose. Here the two elements should in real world terms fight. We have to interpet our mechanic to make that work. This by the way (somewhat to my suprise) includes road charges pulled off the road by the slide mechanic.
TomT
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Post by primuspilus on Apr 12, 2017 11:55:56 GMT
Tony: Second impulse was to allow for this reason: troops that would fight in the real world should fight in our toy solider world. Here the two elements would really clash outside the wood and fight as much as possible. This is clearly not relevant, because the Spear is only allowed to move 1BW. If you believe that the free slide is part of movement, the rule says the Spear can only move 1BW. How you imagine reality to play out is not relevant, especially if you have to ignore the rules to get to your imagination. Hi Dangun, I believe you mentioned an alternative quick play ancients game that you felt did a better job in many respects in many of the matters you seem to have an issue with in DBA v3. May I ask which game(s) you were referring to so I may know where you are coming from on many of the issues you are pointing out? |
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