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Post by stevie on Feb 19, 2017 14:51:45 GMT
And some more:-
II/5L Black Sea Greeks (410 BC – 310 BC) add II/12 Alexandrian Macedonian (359 BC – 319 BC)
II/15 Alexandrian Imperial (328 BC – 321 AD) add II/5L Black Sea Greeks (410 BC – 310 BC)
(II/12 lists II/5L as enemies, but II/5L does not list II/12. Likewise, II/5L lists II/15, but II/15 does not do the same.
I assume the Black Sea Greeks are not only those in the Crimea and east of the Black Sea, but also those colonies along the north coast of Anatolia. Alexander himself never fought them, but some of his lieutenants, notably Antigonos, probably did.)
II/5a Spartan Army in Greece (448 BC – 276 BC) add II/6 Bithynian (435 BC – 74 BC)
(...er...the clue is in the name...Bithynia is in north-western Anatolia, not Greece.
Nonetheless, if you want consistency, II/6 lists II/5a but II/5a does not list II/6, and the Spartans did bounce around the Aegean quite a lot during their many fights with the Athenian led Delian League.)
II/5a Spartan Army in Greece (448 BC – 276 BC) add II/7 Later Achaemenid Persian Army (420 BC – 329 BC)
(Yes, it’s the Spartans again...with their ‘Army in Greece’ fighting in Anatolia once more.
I suppose you could class Ionian Greece in western coastal Anatolia as being ‘in Greece'.
So for the sake of consistency, II/7 lists II/5a but II/5a makes no mention of II/7.)
II/7 Later Achaemenid Persian Army (420 BC – 329 BC) add II/5k Agesilaus’ Expedition (396 BC – 394 BC)
(Army II/5k only has one enemy. Take II/7 away and they’ll have no one to fight!)
II/26 Later Rhoxolani Sarmatian (310 BC – 375 AD) add II/5L Black Sea Greeks (410 BC – 310 BC)
(The Crimean Greeks of II/5L list II/26, but II/26 does not do the same...and the dates do just about touch.)
II/46c Kushan Kidarite Army (411 AD – 477 AD) remove II/69c Sassanid Persian Army (494 AD – 651 AD)
(Although II/46c lists II/69c, II/69c does not list II/46c. Anyway, as you can see, the dates don’t match.)
Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by stevie on Feb 19, 2017 20:47:28 GMT
Guess what...I’ve got even more:- II/72d Other Early Franks (250 AD – 493 AD) add II/81c Armorican Army (429 AD – 580 AD) (Army II/81c lists II/72d as an enemy, but II/72b does not mention II/81c.) II/74a Palmyran Odenathus’ Army (260 AD – 271 AD) change II/69a to II/69b Sassanid Persians (225 AD – 493 AD) (Army II/69b lists II/74a as enemies, but II/74a says II/69a, which is 220 AD – 224 AD, and has the wrong dates.) II/76 Koguryo Korean Army (300 AD – 668 AD) add II/79a Chinese Northern Dynasty Army (317 AD – 589 AD) (I am well out of my comfort zone with this one. II/76 does not list II/79a as an enemy, but II/79a says II/76 was an enemy.) II/80a Attila’s Army (433 AD – 453 AD) remove II/69b Sassanid Persians (225 AD – 493 AD) (Army II/80a lists II/69b as enemies, but II/69b lists II/80b & II/80d as enemies. I don’t think that Attila did attack the Sassanids, being based as he was north of the Danube in the old Roman province of Dacia, although the other Hunnic groups apparently did. ) II/81c British Armies (471 AD – 580 AD) add II/81b Vortigern’s Army (429 AD – 441 AD) (Army II/81b lists II/81c as an enemy, but II/81c does not mention II/81b. Now I know that the dates don’t match each other, but let’s be honest, all the dates for Britannia in this period are just mere guesses anyway....so who can say what is correct?) II/81c Armorican Army (429 AD – 580 AD) change II/82 to II/82a Patrician Roman (408 AD – 493 AD) II/82a Patrician Roman (408 AD – 493 AD) add II/81c Armorican Army (429 AD – 580 AD) (I doubt that the Eastern Patrician army reached as far as northern Gaul, so II/82 should probably be II/82a. And although II/81c lists II/82, II/82a makes no mention of II/81c as an enemy, but they are mentioned as allies.) Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by stevie on Feb 20, 2017 12:39:47 GMT
Timurilank is already doing an excellent job with the Book 2 Germanic armies. And I fancy a bit of a change. So I’ll have a go at some of the Book 1 armies:- I/6a Early Bedouin Army (3000 BC – 1001 BC) remove I/60a and I/60c Early Achaemenid Persians (550 BC – 420 BC) I/60c Early Achaemenid Persians (539 BC – 420 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin Army (3000 BC – 1001 BC) (Army I/6a dates don’t match...they are out of alignment by some 450 years) I/6c Early Aramaean Army (2000 BC – 1101 BC) remove II/16a Antigonos’ Army (320 BC – 301 BC) (Not only is I/6c out by 780 years, but II/16a makes no mention of them.) I/14d Chinese Border-tribes Army (2000 BC - 401 BC) change II/4e to II/4d Other Chinese Armies (480 BC – 356 BC) (I don’t know much about ancient China, but it looks like I/14d has the wrong Other Chinese as an enemy, as the dates don’t match.) I/36d Armies of other Italian Hill Tribes (700? BC – 300 BC) add some additional information:- (These are the Sabines, Aequi, Marsians, Hernicans, Volscians, and Auruncians of the hilly regions to the immediate east and south of Latium. They were all conquered and absorbed into the early Roman Republic by 304 BC. Just thought you’d like to know.) I/44b Later Neo-Babylonian Army (604 BC – 589 BC & 522 BC - 482 BC) add I/41b Medes (835 BC – 550 BC) (Army I/41b lists I/44b as an enemy, but I/44b makes no mention of I/41b.) I/56 Tullian Roman (578 BC – 400 BC) change the Tullian allies from I/36 to I/36a and I/36d (Rome in this early period did not have a fleet and was unable to indulge in overseas expeditions to Sardinia or Sicily, so their allies would have been the land based I/36a Samnites/Umbrians/Hernicians or the I/36d Italian Hill Tribes of the Sabines/Aequi/Marsians/Hernicans/Volscians/Auruncians.) (By the way, it is possible for other people to do some searching and help find these ‘anomalies’ you know.
Instead of moaning year, after year, after year that some of the Army Lists are incorrect, the sooner we find these errors the sooner we can fix them once and for all.
And then we can all move on and find other things to moan about.....)
 Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by timurilank on Feb 20, 2017 15:43:16 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents
III/5a Middle Frankish - Austrasian or Burgundian (496 AD - 639 AD) remove II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD) (408 AD – 493 AD).
Action:
Do remove as the dates do not coincide; 493 AD marks the end of Odoacer’s rule.
III/5a Middle Frankish - Austrasian or Burgundian (496 AD - 639 AD) add II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD)
I am not sure about adding the ‘b’ sub-list as II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD – 621 AD) are listed as enemy of the southern Frankish realms of Neustria, Aquitania and Provencal (III/5b). Their conflict with them resulted in the loss of their holdings in southern Gaul while retaining most of Hispania. The conflict continues later but against a unified Frankish kingdom ruled by the Carolingian dynasty (III/28 639 AD – 888 AD).
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Post by timurilank on Feb 20, 2017 16:05:03 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents
III/16 Khazar (568 AD - 1083 AD) add III/25b Arab Conquest (639 AD - 660 AD)
The Khazar are listed as enemy of the Arab Conquest ‘b’ sub-list, but reviewing the Khazar list of enemies only the III/25c Kharwarij (658 – 673 AD) are noted. Most likely, the ‘c’ sub-list should be noted as ‘b’ as Kharwarij conflicts were mainly against other Arab groups.
III/16 Khazar (568 AD - 1083 AD) add III/48 Rus (860 AD - 1054 AD).
Reading the brief text of the Rus, the Khazars are one of a long list of enemies of the Rus, yet they too are not listed among the enemies.
Action:
III/48 Rus (860 – 1054 AD) must be added to III/16 Khazar enemy list.
III/16 Khazar must be added to the III/48 Rus list.
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Post by timurilank on Feb 20, 2017 16:09:34 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents
III/17 Maurikanian Byzantine (575AD - 650AD) remove II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD) (408 – 493 AD)
Action:
Clearly incorrectly noted among the list of enemies.
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Post by timurilank on Feb 20, 2017 16:27:26 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents
III/30b Magyar (896 AD - 1003 AD) remove III/52 West Frankish & Norman (888 AD - 1072 AD).
III/30b Magyar(896 AD - 1003 AD) add III/53 East Frankish (888 AD - 1106 AD).
It was the Ottonian armies that primarily fought the Magyar, however, the Magyar did invade West Francia (921 AD) and raided Basel, Alsace, Burgundy, Provence and Catalonia between 917 and 925 AD.
Action:
III/53 should be added to the Magyar 'b' sub-list of enemies but the West Frankish (III/52) could remain.
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Post by stevie on Feb 20, 2017 21:51:59 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents Book IV (the saga continues...) IV/3 Anglo-Norman (1072 – 1181 AD) remove IV/39a Navarrese Army (1234 – 1327 AD) (The dates don’t match. I think IV/3 may have got mixed up with IV/23, which is a mutual enemy of IV/39a) IV/5a Sicilian Army (1072 – 1193 AD) add IV/13a Medieval German Army (1106 – 1150 AD) ?(Army IV/13a lists IV/5a as an enemy, but IV/5a does not mention IV/13a.... ....or should IV/13a remove IV/5a? I’m not an expert of medieval history, but I know that one of these is wrong) IV/6b Abbasid Iraq (1092 – 1258 AD) add IV/6a Turkish-ruled Ayyubid remnant Syria (1092 – 1286 AD) (Army IV/6a lists IV/6b as an enemy, but IV/6b does not list IV/6a) IV/6c Arab Dynasties (1092 – 1172 AD) remove IV/35 Mongol Conquest Army (1206 – 1266 AD) IV/6c Arab Dynasties (1092 – 1172 AD) remove IV/46 Ilkhanid Army (1251 – 1355 AD) (Neither IV/35 nor IV/46 lists IV/6c as an enemy, and the dates don’t match) IV/13a Medieval German Army (1106 – 1150 AD) add IV/4a Feudal French Army (1072 – 1199 AD) (Army IV/4a lists IV/13a as an enemy, but IV/13a does not mention IV/4a) IV/14b Jurchen-Chin Army (1126 – 1234 AD) add IV/15 Qara-Khitan Army (1124 – 1211 AD) (Army IV/15 lists IV14b as an enemy, but IV/14b does not mention IV/15) IV/24b Khwarizmian refugee Army (1232 – 1246 AD) add IV/20 Ayyubid Egyptian (1171 – 1250 AD) (Army IV/20 lists IV/24b as an enemy and ally, but IV/24b does not mention IV/20) IV/34 Trapezuntine Byzantine (1204 – 1461 AD) add IV/75 Timurid Army (1360 – 1506 AD) (Army IV/75 lists IV/34 as an enemy, but IV/34 does not mention IV/75, and they did reach eastern Anatolia) IV/46 Ilkhanid Army (1251 – 1355 AD) add IV/6a Turkish-ruled Ayyubid remnant Syria (1092 – 1286 AD) (Army IV/6a lists IV/46 as an enemy, but IV/46 does not mention IV/6a, and they did reach Syria) IV/48 Yuan Chinese Army (1260 – 1368 AD) add IV/35 Mongol Conquest Army (1206 – 1266 AD) (Army IV/35 lists IV/48 as an enemy, but IV/48 does not mention IV/35) III/40d Leidang Army (1071 – 1280 AD) add IV/13e Free Canton Army (1106 – 1518 AD) IV/54a, IV/54b, IV/54d Medieval Scandinavian (1280 – 1523 AD) add IV/13e Free Canton Army (1106 – 1518 AD) (Army IV/13e lists III/40d, IV/54a, IV/54b and IV/54d as enemies, but none of these mentions IV/13e. Looks like IV/13e was a late addition, and the above armies were not updated.) It’s your turn timurilank....  Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by timurilank on Feb 20, 2017 22:27:23 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents
IV/41 Early Swiss 1240 AD – 1400 AD add IV/74 Free Company 1357 AD – 1410 AD and 1444 AD.
IV/74 Free Company 1357 AD – 1410 AD and 1444 AD add IV/41 Early Swiss 1240 AD – 1400 AD.
The IV/79b Later Swiss 1400 AD – 1522 AD are mentioned as having fought the Free Company hired by Charles VII, but nothing in the text would indicate the Early Swiss did as well.
Action:
Unless anyone has information to the contrary, the IV/79b Later Swiss 1425 AD – 1477 AD are the correct Swiss opponents for the Free Company.
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Post by timurilank on Feb 20, 2017 22:28:57 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents
II/3a Classical Indians (500 BC – 178 AD) remove II/42b Tamil Indian & Sinhalese (301 AD - 1370 AD).
Action:
Correct, (These dates don’t match) however, II/42a Tamil Indian 175 BC – 300 AD are listed as enemies for the Classical Indians of both sub-lists.
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Post by Haardrada on Feb 20, 2017 23:40:03 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents
IV/41 Early Swiss 1240 AD – 1400 AD add IV/74 Free Company 1357 AD – 1410 AD and 1444 AD.
IV/74 Free Company 1357 AD – 1410 AD and 1444 AD add IV/41 Early Swiss 1240 AD – 1400 AD.
The IV/79b Later Swiss 1400 AD – 1522 AD are mentioned as having fought the Free Company hired by Charles VII, but nothing in the text would indicate the Early Swiss did as well.
Action:
Unless anyone has information to the contrary, the IV/79b Later Swiss 1425 AD – 1477 AD are the correct Swiss opponents for the Free Company.
Is the Gugglerkreig of 1375 not being considered as evidence of conflict between Early Swiss and English Mercenaries (Free Company)? |
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Post by Dangun on Feb 21, 2017 2:06:26 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents II/80d Other Hunnic Armies (374 AD - 558 AD) remove II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD - 621 AD) I am not sure about this as Honorius employed Huns as ‘foederati’ in his campaign against the Visigoths and Burgundi. This begs the question did they act independent of Roman command as did the Franks fulfilling their ‘feodus’ with Rome fighting the barbarian invasion of 406 AD or did they serve as ‘allies’ of the Western Patrician Romans? Action: Anyone have any information as to why this should be removed? There are a lot of historical errors, before you get to judgement calls like this... But is there any point? Its interesting. Will this ever be compiled, or used? |
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Post by lkmjbc on Feb 21, 2017 4:32:30 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents II/80d Other Hunnic Armies (374 AD - 558 AD) remove II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD - 621 AD) I am not sure about this as Honorius employed Huns as ‘foederati’ in his campaign against the Visigoths and Burgundi. This begs the question did they act independent of Roman command as did the Franks fulfilling their ‘feodus’ with Rome fighting the barbarian invasion of 406 AD or did they serve as ‘allies’ of the Western Patrician Romans? Action: Anyone have any information as to why this should be removed? There are a lot of historical errors, before you get to judgement calls like this... But is there any point? Its interesting. Will this ever be compiled, or used? Sure. We will us it when DBA 3.1 is developed. Joe Collins |
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Post by montyburns on Feb 21, 2017 5:14:28 GMT
I/6c Early Aramaean Army (2000 BC – 1101 BC) remove II/16a Antigonos’ Army (320 BC – 301 BC) (Not only is I/6c out by 780 years, but II/16a makes no mention of them.) Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
I think this is a mistake caused by the changes from 2.2 to 3 in the Early Bedouin lists. I/6c used to be Early Bedouin 999-312BC which I think should be an enemy of Antigonas. One of his generals (possibly Demetrios) started a fight with some arab tribes over control of some Asphalt beds IIRC. These tribes would now be covered by I/6b. |
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Post by stevie on Feb 21, 2017 7:40:49 GMT
PS: Any interest in fixing the historical content of the army lists? Or is the best we can hope for internal consistency? There is a lot of erroneous dates too. But these never get fixed, nor is there any clearing house for compiling and vetting the errors. There are a lot of historical errors, before you get to judgement calls like this... But is there any point?
Make up your mind! I thought you wanted the historical errors fixed.
It’s interesting. Will this ever be compiled, or used? We are doing our best.  (And the more people that help, the quicker it will be done) Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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