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Post by timurilank on Apr 1, 2017 7:42:05 GMT
I/49a Van-lang/Au Lac Vietnamese (700 BC – 207 BC) remove II/4a Ch’in Chinese Army (355 BC – 221 BC)
II/4a Ch’in Chinese Army (355 BC – 221 BC) remove I/49a Van-lang/Au Lac Vietnamese (700 BC – 207 BC)
(Although I/49a and II/4a are listed as mutual enemies, isn’t II/4a too far north to reach I/49a?
On the other hand, both DBA 3.0 and DBMM says I/49b Nan-Yueh included Vietnam...so I’m confused.)
These were mutual enemies under the older version. I would leave this as is until someone chimes in.
Action:
Leave as is.
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Post by timurilank on Apr 1, 2017 7:43:25 GMT
I/49d Early Vietnamese Army (248 AD – 938 AD) remove III/20b Sui Army (612 AD – 623 AD)
(Army I/49d lists III/20b as an enemy, but III/20b doesn’t mention I/49d.
Perhaps the short 11 years of army III/20b’s existence was taken up with fighting the new III/20c T’ang army.)
III/20a Sui Army covers the conflict with Vietnam ending in 605 AD and its later subjugation until 618 AD, thereafter China is ruled by the Tang dynasties.
Agree.
Action:
Remove III/20b Sui Army (612 AD – 623 AD) from I/49d Early Vietnamese Army (248 AD – 938 AD).
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Post by stevie on Apr 1, 2017 9:22:43 GMT
Ye gods I made a lot of mistakes in my previous posts.
Sorry about that.
It's a good job you are checking everything.
I'll try and update page 5 sometime today....
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Post by Haardrada on Apr 1, 2017 9:54:29 GMT
For your consideration an ammendment to the Welsh III/19c list: Allies should read...Allies:III/19a(even after 1197)or IV/23 or IV/64c.
The error could stem from the entry for the revision of the end date for list IV/64b, which ends in 1418AD in book 2.2 and has changed to 1400AD in 3.0.
The French sent 3,000 Knights/men at arms plus siege equipment to help the Welsh commanded by Jean de Reiux in 1405 that assisted in taking Haverfordwest (but not the castle),Tenby and then marched into England!....unsuccessfully.
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Post by stevie on Apr 1, 2017 17:57:00 GMT
Well spotted Haadrada.
But I have a question: was 1405 the only time the French sent aid to the North Welsh? (its not a period I know very well). If so, then perhaps the allies should read as:-
III/19c North Welsh Army (1150 AD – 1420 AD) change Ally from IV/64b to IV/64c (in 1405 only).
But you are right: IV/64c would be better. The French ally contingent could be 3Kn/Bd, a Bd, and an Art, while the contingent from IV/64b would be 3Kn/Bd, a Bd/Sp, and one other (but with no Art 'siege equipment' available).
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Post by Haardrada on Apr 2, 2017 8:47:21 GMT
Well spotted Haadrada. But I have a question: was 1405 the only time the French sent aid to the North Welsh? (its not a period I know very well). If so, then perhaps the allies should read as:- III/19c North Welsh Army (1150 AD – 1420 AD) change Ally from IV/64b to IV/64c (in 1405 only). But you are right: IV/64c would be better. The French ally contingent could be 3Kn/Bd, a Bd, and an Art, while the contingent from IV/64b would be 3Kn/Bd, a Bd/Sp, and one other (but with no Art 'siege equipment' available). Apart from the French sending supporting force to Glyndr 1405 which was re-inforced the same year, I know of no other time the French sent assistance to the Welsh despite centuries of ourbreaks of war and rebellions.Although, some other reader may have greater knowledge? |
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Post by stevie on Apr 2, 2017 20:08:46 GMT
Here is the link to the old thread... "DBA 3.0 visualization" Unfortunately the pictures seem to have disappeared. www.fanaticus.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=16626 link
If you read the thread you can see that "Oceanwide" had actually put all of the enemy-enemy relationships into a spreadsheet already.
Thanks Dangun for finding that link.
Actually, the maps are still available in Photobucket : s158.photobucket.com/user/m_radge/media/DBAbook1.jpg.html
...and they do appear to be formulated from DBA 3.0.
But I cannot find an e-mail address for Oceanwide so am unable to make contact.
(Although Macbeth might know)
However, thanks for the effort but I don’t really want to go down that path.
Even if I had this data, I would still have to go through every single enemy and ally printed in the army lists to be absolutely sure that nothing had been missed, as well as cross-checking the mutual dates of each and every entry, one-at-a time. So I’ll just stick to my present method thanks...it may be slow, primitive, and archaic, but it gets the job done, and it is what I’m comfortable with (I estimate about another month or two to reach the end of Book 4).
But don’t let me stop anyone else from trying to contact Oceanwide or from making their own database.
--------------------------------------
Anyway, page 5 is now up to date: fanaticus.boards.net/thread/603/historical-opponents?page=5&scrollTo=4420
(I'll hold off on posting any Book 2 errors for a while to allow more time for the processing of the Group #3 list)
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Post by timurilank on Apr 3, 2017 12:40:00 GMT
The I/60a Early Achaemenid Persian problem:-
I/44b Later Neo-Babylonians (604 BC – 589 BC & 522 BC – 482 BC) add I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC)
I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC) add I/44b Later Neo-Babylonians (604 BC – 589 BC & 522 BC – 482 BC)
(The earlier I/60a Persians maybe ok for the 604 BC – 589 BC period, but they don’t cover the later Babylonian revolts.)
Agree. I nearly overlooked the later revolts.
Action:
Add I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC) to I/44b Later Neo-Babylonians (604 BC – 589 BC & 522 BC – 482 BC).
Add I/44b Later Neo-Babylonians (604 BC – 589 BC & 522 BC – 482 BC) to I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC).
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Post by timurilank on Apr 3, 2017 12:41:40 GMT
I/48 Thracian Army (700 BC – 46 AD) change I/60a to I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC)
I/60a Achaemenid Army (550 BC – 547 BC) remove I/48 Thracian Army (700 BC – 46 AD)
I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC) add I/48 Thracian Army (700 BC – 46 AD)
(Thrace, along with early Macedonia, were made into dependencies by Darius I in 492 BC, and not by Cyrus II.)
Agree.
Action:
Change I/60a to I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC) for I/48 Thracian Army (700 BC – 46 AD.
Remove I/48 Thracian Army (700 BC – 46 AD) from I/60a Achaemenid Army (550 BC – 547 BC).
Add I/48 Thracian Army (700 BC – 46 AD) to I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC).
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Post by timurilank on Apr 3, 2017 12:42:27 GMT
I/52h Aitolian or Akarnanian Army (668 BC – 449 BC) remove I/60a Achaemenid Army (550 BC – 547 BC)
I/60a Achaemenid Army (550 BC – 547 BC) remove I/52h Aitolian or Akarnanian Army (668 BC – 449 BC)
(The Persians didn’t invade mainland Greece until 490 BC, and when they did the Aitolians and Akarnanians were neutrals, as were the Thessalians, Boeotians, Achaeans and Argos.)
This is strange as both are mutual enemies in the older version. My first thought this should be a simple change of lists; I/52h from I/60a to I/60c.
Action:
Anyone else have information as to their neutrality during the Persian War?
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Post by timurilank on Apr 3, 2017 12:43:52 GMT
I/53 Saitic Egyptian Army (664 BC – 335 BC) remove I/60a Achaemenid Army (550 BC – 547 BC)
I/60a Achaemenid Army (550 BC – 547 BC) remove I/53 Saitic Egyptian Army (664 BC – 335 BC)
(It was Cambyses II who conquered Egypt in 525 BC, not Cyrus the Great.
Cyrus was too busy fighting the Medes and Lydians in the short 4 year period between 550 -547 BC)
Agree.
Action:
Remove I/60a Achaemenid Army (550 BC – 547 BC) from I/53 Saitic Egyptian Army (664 BC – 335 BC).
Remove I/53 Saitic Egyptian Army (664 BC – 335 BC) from I/60a Achaemenid Army (550 BC – 547 BC).
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Post by timurilank on Apr 3, 2017 12:45:36 GMT
I/54 Early Macedonian Army (650 BC – 355 BC) change I/60a to I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC)
I/60a Achaemenid Army (550 BC – 547 BC) remove I/54 Early Macedonian Army (650 BC – 355 BC)
I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC) add I/54 Early Macedonian Army (650 BC – 355 BC)
(It was Darius I of 521 – 486 BC who forced Thrace and Macedonia to become dependencies by 492 BC, not Cyrus II of 559 – 529 BC or his successor Cambyses II of 529 – 522 BC)
Agree.
Action:
Change I/60a to I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC) from I/54 Early Macedonian Army (650 BC – 355 BC).
Remove I/54 Early Macedonian Army (650 BC – 355 BC) from I/60a Achaemenid Army (550 BC – 547 BC).
Add I/54 Early Macedonian Army (650 BC – 355 BC) to I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC).
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Post by timurilank on Apr 3, 2017 12:47:35 GMT
I/56a Early Kyrenean Army (630 BC – 314 BC) remove I/60a Achaemenid Army (550 BC – 547 BC)
I/56b Later Kyrenean Army (313 BC – 74 BC) remove I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC)
I/60a Achaemenid Army (550 BC – 547 BC) remove I/56a Early Kyrenean Army (630 BC – 314 BC)
I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC) remove I/56b Later Kyrenean Army (313 BC – 74 BC)
(Egypt was not conquered by Cambyses II until 525 BC, so army I/60a couldn’t have reached Kyrene.
And army I/56b is after the Persian empire had already been conquered by Alexander the Great.
This still leaves I/56a and I/60c as mutual enemies.)
Agree.
Action
Remove I/60a Achaemenid Army (550 BC – 547 BC) from I/56a Early Kyrenean Army (630 BC – 314 BC).
Remove I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC) from I/56a Early Kyrenean Army (630 BC – 314 BC).
Remove I/56a Early Kyrenean Army (630 BC – 314 BC) from I/60a Achaemenid Army (550 BC – 547 BC).
Remove I/56b Later Kyrenean Army (313 BC – 74 BC) from I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC).
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Post by timurilank on Apr 3, 2017 12:49:43 GMT
I/58 Meroitic Kushite Army (592 BC – 350 AD) change I/60a to I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC)
I/60a Achaemenid Army (550 BC – 547 BC) remove I/58 Meroitic Kushite Army (592 BC – 350 AD)
I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC) add I/58 Meroitic Kushite Army (592 BC – 350 AD)
(As mentioned above, it was Cambyses II of Persia that conquered Egypt in 525 BC and then advanced into Nubia.)
Agree.
Action:
Change I/60a to I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC) to I/58 Meroitic Kushite Army (592 BC – 350 AD).
Remove I/58 Meroitic Kushite Army (592 BC – 350 AD) from I/60a Achaemenid Army (550 BC – 547 BC).
Add I/58 Meroitic Kushite Army (592 BC – 350 AD) to I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC).
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Post by timurilank on Apr 3, 2017 12:51:03 GMT
I/60a Achaemenid Army (550 BC – 547 BC) remove as an Ally the I/52d Theban Hoplite Army (668 BC – 449 BC)
I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC) add as an Ally the I/52d Theban Hoplite Army (668 BC – 449 BC)
(Army I/60a is too early to have I/52d as an ally, as the Persian invasion of Greece did not start till 490 BC.)
Agree.
Action:
Remove as an Ally the I/52d Theban Hoplite Army from I/60a Achaemenid Army (550 BC – 547 BC).
Add as an Ally the I/52d Theban Hoplite Army to I/60c Achaemenid Army (539 BC – 420 BC).
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