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Post by bob on Aug 24, 2017 18:19:15 GMT
I like War Wagons for the same reason many people like Double Based Elements -- they look cool. I had 3 Hussite armies in 1.1 on square bases, and protested to Phil when he made them longer in 2. And I protested during 3 development that they should be square, at least for simplicity of game play. Luckily he agreed, but let people grandfather in their old ones.
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Post by konstantinius on Dec 6, 2019 4:46:38 GMT
Only a few responses which perhaps indicates that War Wagons are not often used. Though they can certainly look impressive when they are. Below, a photo from Conquest 2016 competition showing Mark BB's well painted 15mm Hussite army.  So WWg can move forward on their wide edge? Because they consider any edge as their front edge?
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Post by paddy649 on Dec 6, 2019 7:58:26 GMT
I’ve tried putting my Wwg (for later Germans) on 40x40 bases with the horses plus other stuff also on a 40x40 base but so that they line up and could be used combined as a 40x80 base. Only done one so far but it seems to work.
I can’t see anything in the rules stopping you mixing 40x40 and 40x80 basing in the same army. 40x40 along the front and 40x80 on the flanks.
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Post by martin on Dec 6, 2019 9:47:55 GMT
Only a few responses which perhaps indicates that War Wagons are not often used. Though they can certainly look impressive when they are. Below, a photo from Conquest 2016 competition showing Mark BB's well painted 15mm Hussite army.  So WWg can move forward on their wide edge? Because they consider any edge as their front edge? I believe the WWg consider their front edge, for movement, as the 40mm edge. I don’t think they can advance on their wide edge as part of a group move. HOWEVER, if you look very closely at the photo, the left hand end is actually TWO warwagons (on 2 x 40mm square bases), even though it looks like one 40x80 base.
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Post by chaotic on Dec 6, 2019 11:32:07 GMT
I think there are 11 armies that contain war wagons of one sort or another (with number of WWg permitted):
I/60b Cyrus’ Army according to the Cyropaedia: 1 II/63 Three Kingdoms or Western Ts’in (Chin) Chinese Army: 1 II/79b Southern Dynasty Army: 2 III/47 Pecheneg Army: 2 III/57 Koryo Dynasty Korean Army: 1 III/73b Communal Italian Army: 1 IV/13c Medieval German Army: 2 IV/43c Hungarian Army: 2 IV/44a Post-Mongol Russian Army: 2 IV/66 Later Polish Army: 2 IV/80 Hussite Army: 6
In my collection I have Cyropaedic Persians, Medieval Germans, Hungarians and Hussites and I have experimented with all of these on the tabletop. Here are my thoughts on each:
The Persian war wagon is really an assault tower. It looks very impressive with its huge height and team of oxen. The army list is flexible, effective and a lot of fun to use, if a bit fragile against some ahistorical opponents. Unfortunately it has only one historical opponent, so if this is important to you, the army's playability is limited. The role of the war wagon in my army is to anchor one flank of the bowmen while the cavalry, camelry and scythe chariots demolish the enemy on the other flank - hopefully before the bowmen in the centre die gloriously.
Medieval Germans and Hungarians are, in my view, the best lists for exploiting the virtues and minimising the weaknesses of war wagons. Both are flexible, combined arms armies with plenty of historical enemies to fight. Medieval Germans have an aggression of 1 and fight in Arable terrain, so you have a good chance of defending and therefore setting the terrain. The Later Hungarian army fights in Steppe terrain - probably the best terrain for war wagons - and has other very effective Steppe troops, however with an aggression of 2 you are slightly less likely to be the defender. Of the two, I think the Hungarians are the stronger army. In both armies I usually use the war wagons defensively, protecting one or both flanks and avoiding enemy artillery zones.
Hussites look impressive on the table but they are fairly slow, clumsy and inflexible. Their aggression of 3 makes it more likely that they will be the attacker fighting in unfavourable terrain. They also have a rather limited field of opponents. I have all of my wagons on 40x80 bases with the wagon and horse teams attached. I've modelled the artillery on a wagon with 40x40 base, with a separate horse team for aesthetic reasons, also on a 40x40 base but removable when required. Hussites, by necessity, have to be a bit more aggressive with their war wagons, but the wagons are emphatically NOT tanks, so don't try to use them as such. They have to be protected from enemy blades and artillery with your own blades.
If you play in tournaments, I would tend to avoid armies with war wagons. I find that most experienced players have little trouble exploiting their weaknesses and if they don't lose, they seem to generate more drawn games. That said, they are not often encountered, so when they turn up on the table, they do make you think about the game.
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Post by konstantinius on Dec 6, 2019 20:41:13 GMT
I believe the WWg consider their front edge, for movement, as the 40mm edge. I don’t think they can advance on their wide edge as part of a group move. HOWEVER, if you look very closely at the photo, the left hand end is actually TWO warwagons (on 2 x 40mm square bases), even though it looks like one 40x80 base. Ah, yes. These look like they're on 40x40 bases. Mine are based for 2.2 on 40x80. I could rebase them I guess
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Post by gregorius on Dec 6, 2019 23:00:25 GMT
I think there are 11 armies that contain war wagons of one sort or another (with number of WWg permitted): I/60b Cyrus’ Army according to the Cyropaedia: 1 II/63 Three Kingdoms or Western Ts’in (Chin) Chinese Army: 1 II/79b Southern Dynasty Army: 2 III/47 Pecheneg Army: 2 III/57 Koryo Dynasty Korean Army: 1 III/73b Communal Italian Army: 1 IV/13c Medieval German Army: 2 IV/43c Hungarian Army: 2 IV/44a Post-Mongol Russian Army: 2 IV/66 Later Polish Army: 2 IV/80 Hussite Army: 6 In my collection I have Cyropaedic Persians, Medieval Germans, Hungarians and Hussites and I have experimented with all of these on the tabletop. Here are my thoughts on each: The Persian war wagon is really an assault tower. It looks very impressive with its huge height and team of oxen. The army list is flexible, effective and a lot of fun to use, if a bit fragile against some ahistorical opponents. Unfortunately it has only one historical opponent, so if this is important to you, the army's playability is limited. The role of the war wagon in my army is to anchor one flank of the bowmen while the cavalry, camelry and scythe chariots demolish the enemy on the other flank - hopefully before the bowmen in the centre die gloriously. Medieval Germans and Hungarians are, in my view, the best lists for exploiting the virtues and minimising the weaknesses of war wagons. Both are flexible, combined arms armies with plenty of historical enemies to fight. Medieval Germans have an aggression of 1 and fight in Arable terrain, so you have a good chance of defending and therefore setting the terrain. The Later Hungarian army fights in Steppe terrain - probably the best terrain for war wagons - and has other very effective Steppe troops, however with an aggression of 2 you are slightly less likely to be the defender. Of the two, I think the Hungarians are the stronger army. In both armies I usually use the war wagons defensively, protecting one or both flanks and avoiding enemy artillery zones. Hussites look impressive on the table but they are fairly slow, clumsy and inflexible. Their aggression of 3 makes it more likely that they will be the attacker fighting in unfavourable terrain. They also have a rather limited field of opponents. I have all of my wagons on 40x80 bases with the wagon and horse teams attached. I've modelled the artillery on a wagon with 40x40 base, with a separate horse team for aesthetic reasons, also on a 40x40 base but removable when required. Hussites, by necessity, have to be a bit more aggressive with their war wagons, but the wagons are emphatically NOT tanks, so don't try to use them as such. They have to be protected from enemy blades and artillery with your own blades. If you play in tournaments, I would tend to avoid armies with war wagons. I find that most experienced players have little trouble exploiting their weaknesses and if they don't lose, they seem to generate more drawn games. That said, they are not often encountered, so when they turn up on the table, they do make you think about the game. That's a great analysis of WWgs Gary. Lots of food for thought as l think that there may be at least 1 Hussite army at CANCON. Cheers,
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Post by paulhannah on Dec 6, 2019 23:44:45 GMT
I/60b Cyrus’ Army according to the Cyropaedia... The Persian war wagon is really an assault tower. And it alone can do something no other WWg can: It "can contact an enemy-held city, fort or camp". (Page-9) I have to manage this, but there's always the next game. (Grins.) Presumably, Demetrios' Helepolis could have done likewise in 3.0, but, alas, the Authorities deleted that WWg from the II/16b AES list. Arrgh.
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Post by chaotic on Dec 7, 2019 5:53:16 GMT
I/60b Cyrus’ Army according to the Cyropaedia... The Persian war wagon is really an assault tower. And it alone can do something no other WWg can: It "can contact an enemy-held city, fort or camp". (Page-9) I have to manage this, but there's always the next game. (Grins.) I've never done this either! 
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Post by chaotic on Dec 7, 2019 6:16:43 GMT
That's a great analysis of WWgs Gary. Lots of food for thought as l think that there may be at least 1 Hussite army at CANCON. Cheers, Thanks Greg.  It will be interesting to see the Hussites put in another tournament appearance. I recall playing against Mark Baker's Hussites at Wintercon in 2018. I was using Spring and Autumn Chinese (one of my favourite armies), and the combination of low aggression to set the terrain, lots of fast blades and heavy chariots put him at a great disadvantage. I was able to approach him from several different directions, force him to break up his defensive line and destroy enough isolated elements to win. I think you were using Normans in that tournament. How did the knights fare against him?
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Post by gregorius on Dec 8, 2019 0:11:21 GMT
That's a great analysis of WWgs Gary. Lots of food for thought as l think that there may be at least 1 Hussite army at CANCON. Cheers, Thanks Greg.  It will be interesting to see the Hussites put in another tournament appearance. I recall playing against Mark Baker's Hussites at Wintercon in 2018. I was using Spring and Autumn Chinese (one of my favourite armies), and the combination of low aggression to set the terrain, lots of fast blades and heavy chariots put him at a great disadvantage. I was able to approach him from several different directions, force him to break up his defensive line and destroy enough isolated elements to win. I think you were using Normans in that tournament. How did the knights fare against him? 2018 is too far back to recall for an old phart like me 🙄. I've still to make up my mind as to what I'll be fielding at CANCON. Cheers,
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