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Post by BrianNZ on Feb 4, 2017 4:44:33 GMT
Had a situation today where an Aux was shot at from partially to its rear with a recoil result inflicted.
The Aux turned 180 and recoiled, this left its side edge touching the front edge of a Cav General.
The left front corner of the Cav General was lined up with the left front corner of the Aux.
Question: Does the Aux conform to the Cav General immediately and fight a close combat in the combat phase?
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Post by menacussecundus on Feb 4, 2017 8:49:43 GMT
I would play it that the Ax conforms immediately, but that combat takes place in the subsequent bound, but I'm not sure the rules actually cover this situation.
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Post by stevie on Feb 4, 2017 11:32:27 GMT
I agree with menacussecundus.
The very last sentence of “Moving Into Contact” on page 9, paragraph 9 says:-
“Elements contacted this bound by an enemy, or whose front edge is still in contact when combat ends, automatically conform.”
In BrianNZ’s case the auxiliaries have been contacted by the general’s front edge (even though it was their own recoil from shooting that caused this contact to happen), so I think they should automatically conform by turning to face the enemy general.
I think I have this right.
I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong.
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Post by primuspilus on Feb 4, 2017 15:33:42 GMT
Question: does recoiling into shooting range trigger shooting where none existed before? If not, then why would close combat be triggered by an outcome move? If it would, then Kn pursuit of Kn would trigger endless combat in the same bound until one of them died, no?
So no, there would be no close combat as a result of the outcome move. Conforming will happen after combat resolution.
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Post by bob on Feb 5, 2017 5:13:17 GMT
"Recoiling or pushed back elements move straight back without turning"
The auxilia moves and stays where it is. There is no combat as a result in the bound that the elements recoiled. When conforming occurs is not mentioned in the rules for recoiled elements. the only mention is when elements pursue.
An element that recoils from shooting cannot be shot again. There is only ever One combat Per element Per bound. However if an element is shot away, an element behind it could be eligible for shooting by an element that has not already done so.
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Post by BrianNZ on Feb 5, 2017 7:40:52 GMT
"Recoiling or pushed back elements move straight back without turning" Bob the Auxilia was shot from partially behind so first turns 180 then recoils. |
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Post by bob on Feb 5, 2017 16:44:00 GMT
"Recoiling or pushed back elements move straight back without turning" Bob the Auxilia was shot from partially behind so first turns 180 then recoils. Yes, I read your comment earlier. The auxilia first turns, and then recoils. So then the recoil starts
"Recoiling or pushed back elements move straight back without turning"
so in summary, the auxilia is shot from behind, turns, recoils, and once recoiling moves the straight back without further turning
Where are we in disagreement? |
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Post by stevie on Feb 6, 2017 0:10:12 GMT
Question: does recoiling into shooting range trigger shooting where none existed before? If not, then why would close combat be triggered by an outcome move? If it would, then Kn pursuit of Kn would trigger endless combat in the same bound until one of them died, no? Actually, page 10 paragraph 3 says:-
“Targets exposed by outcome moves can be shot at.”
Well, recoiling is an outcome move...
As for Kn's pursuit ending in endless combat, surely that is already covered by page 12 paragraph 11:- "If a pursuing element’s front edge contacts (an) enemy or its front corner contacts an enemy front edge, they line up immediately as if contact was by a tactical move, but the resulting combat is resolved next bound."
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Post by macbeth on Feb 6, 2017 3:14:41 GMT
Actually, page 10 paragraph 3 says:-
“Targets exposed by outcome moves can be shot at.”
Can Targets exposed by outcome moves shoot ??
At Cancon I had an incident where my Art blew away an element of Sp thus exposing the Cb behind them. My opponent said that his Cb could now shoot at my Art so that was allowed.
Now comes the tricky part - can elements shot at, because the outcome of their shooting allowed an exposed element to shoot, return fire?
If parts of this are true then I can envisage two columns of shooters alternately eliminating each other as the cascading shots reveal new shooters that kill another enemy thus exposing more 
So the successor to the Road Torpedo is the Crossbow Column Cascade of death  
Cheers
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Post by stevie on Feb 6, 2017 6:48:08 GMT
Actually, page 10 paragraph 3 says:-
“Targets exposed by outcome moves can be shot at.”
Can Targets exposed by outcome moves shoot ??
At Cancon I had an incident where my Art blew away an element of Sp thus exposing the Cb behind them. My opponent said that his Cb could now shoot at my Art so that was allowed.
Now comes the tricky part - can elements shot at, because the outcome of their shooting allowed an exposed element to shoot, return fire?
If parts of this are true then I can envisage two columns of shooters alternately eliminating each other as the cascading shots reveal new shooters that kill another enemy thus exposing more
So the successor to the Road Torpedo is the Crossbow Column Cascade of death
Cheers
Ha! Good answer Macbeth. Well, the rules do imply that an element can only shoot once per bound (mind you, nowhere does it actually say that). If so, then even if your Art threw a ‘6’ and the crossbow threw a ‘1’ your opponent could invoke the rule on page 11 paragraph 4:- “An element shooting without being shot at disregards an unfavourable outcome.” (The Art having already used it’s one-and-only shot that bound against the spear element.) Other than that my only defense is to say that I didn’t write the rules. |
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Post by Dangun on Feb 6, 2017 8:39:23 GMT
When conforming occurs is not mentioned in the rules for recoiled elements. Its disappointing that this persistent question hasn't yet been cleaned up by the author. |
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Post by martin on Feb 6, 2017 13:30:20 GMT
When conforming occurs is not mentioned in the rules for recoiled elements. Its disappointing that this persistent question hasn't yet been cleaned up by the author. Author is not interested....other fish to fry. M |
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Post by bob on Feb 6, 2017 18:52:25 GMT
Ha! Good answer Macbeth. Well, the rules do imply that an element can only shoot once per bound (mind you, nowhere does it actually say that). If so, then even if your Art threw a ‘6’ and the crossbow threw a ‘1’ your opponent could invoke the rule on page 11 paragraph 4:- “An element shooting without being shot at disregards an unfavourable outcome.” (The Art having already used it’s one-and-only shot that bound against the spear element.) Other than that my only defense is to say that I didn’t write the rules. This rule seems to more than imply that an element shoots once per bound "Any Artillery, War Wagons or Bows elements of both sides that are eligible to do so, must shoot once each (in case of dispute in the order the moving player decides) and make or inflict outcome moves" |
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Post by stevie on Feb 6, 2017 19:48:18 GMT
Well, the rules do imply that an element can only shoot once per bound (mind you, nowhere does it actually say that). This rule seems to more than imply that an element shoots once per bound "Any Artillery, War Wagons or Bows elements of both sides that are eligible to do so, must shoot once each (in case of dispute in the order the moving player decides) and make or inflict outcome moves" Very well spotted Bob! I stand corrected. I missed the “Sequence of Play” section on page 8, paragraph 4, item 3, which you have quoted. (Shame on me)  |
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Post by macbeth on Feb 7, 2017 3:12:16 GMT
So thanks to Bob and Stevie I can confirm 1) That the way we played it at Cancon was correct 2) That the Crossbow Column Cascade of death is a real thing and could happen  Cheers |
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