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Post by paulisper on Jul 30, 2024 15:55:37 GMT
A strange one came up in discussion today. Why have the IV/62a 100 Yrs War English got themselves as Allies - surely a mistake? Can't find any discussion on this one on Fanaticus and it's not in Stevie's Army List corrections PDF on the Wiki either...
P.
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Post by martin on Jul 30, 2024 16:53:47 GMT
A strange one came up in discussion today. Why have the IV/62a 100 Yrs War English got themselves as Allies - surely a mistake? Can't find any discussion on this one on Fanaticus and it's not in Stevie's Army List corrections PDF on the Wiki either... P. Might be there to reflect unreliable sections of an army (?). |
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Post by Haardrada on Jul 30, 2024 16:56:53 GMT
A strange one came up in discussion today. Why have the IV/62a 100 Yrs War English got themselves as Allies - surely a mistake? Can't find any discussion on this one on Fanaticus and it's not in Stevie's Army List corrections PDF on the Wiki either... P. Usually that's an indication that a subordinate General is sufficiently disloyal enough to be considered as an an allied General perhaps?Just like Percy and Stanley are in WOTR lists. |
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Post by Les1964 on Jul 30, 2024 18:12:35 GMT
Checked the DBMM list , no English Allied Gens .
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Post by paulisper on Jul 30, 2024 18:13:49 GMT
A strange one came up in discussion today. Why have the IV/62a 100 Yrs War English got themselves as Allies - surely a mistake? Can't find any discussion on this one on Fanaticus and it's not in Stevie's Army List corrections PDF on the Wiki either... P. Usually that's an indication that a subordinate General is sufficiently disloyal enough to be considered as an an allied General perhaps?Just like Percy and Stanley are in WOTR lists. OK, get it for WotR, as it was essentially a civil war that comes with lots of diceyness, in terms of loyalty, but 100 Years War...? P. |
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Post by timurilank on Jul 30, 2024 19:12:48 GMT
IV/62a English Army 1322 – 1333, allies: IV/62a
This may reflect the Baronal rebellion against Edward II
that would be later named the Despenser Wars.
In the DBMM army lists, Phil generally notes when allies
may be employed, in this case, the English are not mentioned.
Reading the biography of Isabella of France (Queen of England)
might shed some light.
It may be her army that gathered allies during the invasion
of England in 1326 and her pursuit of Edward II to Wales.
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Post by paulisper on Jul 30, 2024 19:50:43 GMT
IV/62a English Army 1322 – 1333, allies: IV/62a
This may reflect the Baronal rebellion against Edward II that would be later named the Despenser Wars. In the DBMM army lists, Phil generally notes when allies may be employed, in this case, the English are not mentioned. Reading the biography of Isabella of France (Queen of England) might shed some light. It may be her army that gathered allies during the invasion of England in 1326 and her pursuit of Edward II to Wales. But wouldn’t that be Feudal French, with IV/62 allies? P |
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Post by Baldie on Jul 30, 2024 20:19:13 GMT
A strange one came up in discussion today. Why have the IV/62a 100 Yrs War English got themselves as Allies - surely a mistake? Can't find any discussion on this one on Fanaticus and it's not in Stevie's Army List corrections PDF on the Wiki either... P. For Steel Warriors to enter them. |
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Post by Haardrada on Jul 30, 2024 21:18:49 GMT
The Dispenser rebellion was led by the Earl of Lancaster and other nobles who came into conflict with Edward II and the Marcher Lords...after the Battle of Borough Bridge in 1322 the rebellion was over.But then his wife Isabella allied with Mortimer against Edward II....so the early period of the list begins with a rebellion and the dubious loyalties could be extended until Mortimer was killed and Edward III had secured his throne and started the HYW.
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Post by timurilank on Jul 30, 2024 21:38:17 GMT
IV/62a English Army 1322 – 1333, allies: IV/62a
This may reflect the Baronal rebellion against Edward II that would be later named the Despenser Wars. In the DBMM army lists, Phil generally notes when allies may be employed, in this case, the English are not mentioned. Reading the biography of Isabella of France (Queen of England) might shed some light. It may be her army that gathered allies during the invasion of England in 1326 and her pursuit of Edward II to Wales. But wouldn’t that be Feudal French, with IV/62 allies? P Edit: Most likely;
The gathering of the Marcher Lords (Lancaster, Mortimer and Hereford) to confront Edward II and the Despensers is best represented by the use of an ally. Alternatively,
Use the English army list with Isabella and Mortimer forming an allied contingent: Isabella & Mortimer (3Kn), 1 x Hainaulters (3Kn), 1 x Germans (3Kn), the last two represent the mercenaries recruited in Flanders |
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timr
Munifex
Posts: 42
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Post by timr on Jul 30, 2024 21:47:21 GMT
I thought it could be the ‘Scots’ lords at Halidon Hill.
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Post by paulisper on Jul 31, 2024 7:21:11 GMT
But wouldn’t that be Feudal French, with IV/62 allies? P Edit: Most likely;
The gathering of the Marcher Lords (Lancaster, Mortimer and Hereford) to confront Edward II and the Despensers is best represented by the use of an ally. Alternatively,
Use the English army list with Isabella and Mortimer forming an allied contingent: Isabella & Mortimer (3Kn), 1 x Hainaulters (3Kn), 1 x Germans (3Kn), the last two represent the mercenaries recruited in Flanders I'm really not getting this one... so, we're saying that IV/62a (Edward II) should have IV/62a as an enemy (IV/62a Marcher Lords, with IV/62a (Isabella & Mortimer, Hainaulters & German components) as an ally)? The problem then is that IV/62a is not listed as an enemy of itself in the Book of Purple. P. |
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Post by paulisper on Jul 31, 2024 7:23:31 GMT
The Dispenser rebellion was led by the Earl of Lancaster and other nobles who came into conflict with Edward II and the Marcher Lords...after the Battle of Borough Bridge in 1322 the rebellion was over. But then his wife Isabella allied with Mortimer against Edward II....so the early period of the list begins with a rebellion and the dubious loyalties could be extended until Mortimer was killed and Edward III had secured his throne and started the HYW. Again, the issue here is that IV/62a doesn't have IV/62a listed as an enemy... P. |
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Post by timurilank on Jul 31, 2024 8:18:18 GMT
It is quite possible this was omitted while editing the army lists.
Civil unrest among the nobles and a ruling monarch were not
uncommon, the same army list appears as an enemy.
III/24 Middle Anglo-Saxon 617-1016 enemy: III/24
III/72 Anglo Danish 1014-1075 enemy: III/72
IV/3 Anglo-Norman 1072-1181 enemy: IV/3
IV/23 Feudal English 1181-1322 enemy: IV/23
IV/62a 100 Year’s War 1322-1455 omitted the Despenser War*,
Royalist vs. Contrariants * and Queen Isabella, supported by the
nobles depose Edward II and crown Edward III (1321-1326).
IV/83 Wars of the Roses 1455-1515 enemy: IV/83
• The Battle of Boroughbridge 16 March 1322 is listed in
Armies of the Middle Ages, vol.1, Ian Heath.
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Post by menacussecundus on Jul 31, 2024 9:08:55 GMT
It is quite possible this was omitted while editing the army lists. Civil unrest among the nobles and a ruling monarch were not uncommon, the same army list appears as an enemy. III/24 Middle Anglo-Saxon 617-1016 enemy: III/24 III/72 Anglo Danish 1014-1075 enemy: III/72 IV/3 Anglo-Norman 1072-1181 enemy: IV/3 IV/23 Feudal English 1181-1322 enemy: IV/23 IV/62a 100 Year’s War 1322-1455 omitted the Despenser War*, Royalist vs. Contrariants * and Queen Isabella, supported by the nobles depose Edward II and crown Edward III (1321-1326). IV/83 Wars of the Roses 1455-1515 enemy: IV/83 • The Battle of Boroughbridge 16 March 1322 is listed in Armies of the Middle Ages, vol.1, Ian Heath. Most of those are readily comprehensible: Middle Saxons, the different kingdoms in conflict against each other, Wessex v Mercia, Mercia v Northumbria etc; Anglo-Danish, Edmund Ironside v Canute; Anglo-Norman, various rebellions against William both in England and in Normandy; Feudal English, Stephen and Maud/Matilda; WotR was, of course, a civil war, but here the option of an ally is confined to one specific year. But the HYW option of an ally from the same army list strikes me as anomalous. Either one was a loyal subject of the Crown or in rebellion against it (which, as paulisper points out, isn't an option). However, an ally suggests some sort of independent status and autonomy of action, which doesn't seem to have a historical equivalent during the period covered. |
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