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Post by hodsopa on Jan 16, 2024 12:14:11 GMT
A question came up in an informal game before the Slimbridge tournament earlier this month. Although the question is about close combat, it is helpful to take diagram 15a in the rules (which is about shooting) as the starting point.
In that diagram, if it is the turn of Warband X and the warband is fast, it has enough movement to contact the front left corner of Bow A with its own front edge. But it hasn't got enough movement to contact any more of Bow A's front edge than that.
The rules state that "an extra sideways slide of up to 1 BW is allowed if this is necessary to conform after contacting an enemy front edge".
The issue is whether 1) Bow A's front corner forms part of its "front edge" and if so, whether 2) a "sideways slide" can include a pivot.
If so in both cases, then Warband X can conform. If one or the other of those things is not so, then it would seem that there is no possibiity of an extra slide. In that case Warband A could not conform. The contact would be "illegal" and would not happen.
How should the rules be interpreted on these two points?
Paul H
PS If Warband X was part of a group and Bow A was not, it would be up to Bow A to conform. But I think the rule interpretation questions wouldn't change.
PPS Tell me if I have expressed the issue wrong.
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Post by skb777 on Jan 16, 2024 12:39:04 GMT
I remember when the offside rule used to give the benefit of the doubt to the attacker. A somewhat left field answer, but if I don't know or ain't sure of a rule I just use common sense. I'd say yes, but then again I'm not a rule lawyer.
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Post by Brian Ború on Jan 16, 2024 13:12:25 GMT
I remember that some time ago we had a little skirmish here on fanaticus about TZs touching or not.
We finally agreed that PB considers corners to be no part of an edge.
With this in mind it is easy to answer your question:
The warband has not made legal contact (at least partially edge to edge) and thus no sliding (or pivoting) is needed or possible.
The warband only succeeds in pinning the enemy unit down. Close combat doesn’t occur.
Another small question I'd like to throw in: when this movement of the warband is over, then how may the bows move?
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Post by skb777 on Jan 16, 2024 13:51:40 GMT
I can just imagine all these snarling hairy Herberts milling about confused as they remain in a straight line and stopping as soon as one of them hits the corner of the enemy. Both sides then shuffling about rather embarrassed and the warband apologising because it 'Union Rules' and more than their job is worth.
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Post by hodsopa on Jan 16, 2024 15:18:43 GMT
I can just imagine all these snarling hairy Herberts milling about confused as they remain in a straight line and stopping as soon as one of them hits the corner of the enemy. Both sides then shuffling about rather embarrassed and the warband apologising because it 'Union Rules' and more than their job is worth. Every game has the vices of its virtues, in my opinion, skb. Compared with rule sets like ADLG, DBA has the virtues of a clean battlefield (no damage markers), what I think of as a 'historical looking' battlefield (mess, rather than armies staying engaged in straight lines) and tricky tactical choices such as deciding the order in which you make attacks. (I am not sure that the last has a historical basis, but I enjoy it.) The cost we pay for these virtues, the vice, is DBA's fiddly movement rules. Movement backwards (and pursuit) takes the place of damage markers; the mess is created by this, and by our edging left or right to try and get a flank attack, which is more powerful in this game than others; the order in which you make attacks influences whether and where you make holes in the enemy line. All these things are regulated by the fiddly movement rules, and I've made my peace with them - though I also enjoy their absence in skirmish games like Infamy Infamy. The reason for my original post was that given that we do in fact have this type of rule, the best thing - if we want to keep things moving along rather than getting bogged down in rule discussions during games - is to have a consensus in advance on how the rules should be read. (Another of the virtues of DBA is how quick games can be; different readings of the rules slow them down.) On the substance my instinct is that Brian Ború is right, but I'd also be happy to play the other way. I'd just like to know which. Paul H |
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Post by Baldie on Jan 16, 2024 16:45:45 GMT
I always understood front edge to be the flat bit, corner not quite the front edge so no free slide.
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Post by martin on Jan 16, 2024 20:50:26 GMT
“Corner not an edge” was a decision soon after v3 came out (and after extensive debate, IIRC. Paul, one useful resource (though not for this query, tbh) is the FAQ’s , which can be found in the resources section of Keith McNelly’s blog, here- ancientwargaming.wordpress.com/dba_resources/ |
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Post by skb777 on Jan 16, 2024 21:27:46 GMT
I remember that some time ago we had a little skirmish here on fanaticus about TZs touching or not. We finally agreed that PB considers corners to be no part of an edge. With this in mind it is easy to answer your question: The warband has not made legal contact (at least partially edge to edge) and thus no sliding (or pivoting) is needed or possible. The warband only succeeds in pinning the enemy unit down. Close combat doesn’t occur. Another small question I'd like to throw in: when this movement of the warband is over, then how may the bows move? A little skirmish - I think you have been hanging arounf these boards too long Brian as this is the most British thing I've heard what was probably a rather heated debate. |
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Post by Brian Ború on Jan 17, 2024 0:01:15 GMT
I remember that some time ago we had a little skirmish here on fanaticus about TZs touching or not. We finally agreed that PB considers corners to be no part of an edge. With this in mind it is easy to answer your question: The warband has not made legal contact (at least partially edge to edge) and thus no sliding (or pivoting) is needed or possible. The warband only succeeds in pinning the enemy unit down. Close combat doesn’t occur. Another small question I'd like to throw in: when this movement of the warband is over, then how may the bows move? A little skirmish - I think you have been hanging arounf these boards too long Brian as this is the most British thing I've heard what was probably a rather heated debate. Ah, yes, out of the distance things become smaller...  |
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Post by hodsopa on Jan 18, 2024 13:11:17 GMT
Seems to be a consensus that a corner is not an edge - thanks to all! Paul
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