cgd
Munifex
Posts: 21
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Post by cgd on Dec 5, 2023 16:19:52 GMT
Hello guys,
I have a debate with goldenhord and onurbm about the way we should interprete p. 31 "ALLIED CONTINGENTS" "An allied contingent must include the general's element of its army [...] and at least 1 element from the entry with the largest number of element. [...] Any third element is the player's choice from elements yet unused."
I do not have spare time to argue endlessly with them, so I put it there to your wisdom.
Those two sentences are rather clear for me, but it looks like we do not understand the same thing.
1) One interpretation of the whole sentence is that : - You must choose one element that is valid for the general
- You must choose one element under the unique entry with the highest number
- You must choose one element which can not be choosen among the elements labeled "General"
2) Another interpretation is that "at least 1 element from the entry with the largest number of element" refers to the kind of element that are the more numerous possible.
Exemple with the issue about a Parthian ally (II/37) :
Since it would be possible to have a full list as follow : - 1 x General 4Kn
- 1 x cataphracts 4Kn - 1 x cataphracts 4Kn or horse archers LH - 2 x cataphracts 4Kn or horse archers LH or archers Ps
- 1 x cataphracts 4Kn or horse archers LH or Daylami 4Ax
- 4 x horse archers LH
- 2 x horse archers LH or Hyrkanian mountaineers 3Ax or city militia (3Bw).
The army built that way contains 6x 4Kn (including the general), 4 x LH and 2 x 3x.
Then, onurbm strongly claims it is possible to choose the allied contingent that way : - 1 x General 4kn - 1 x 4Kn (since 6 Kn is more than 4 LH) - 1 x 4Kn (since the third is any element). Ending with 3 x 4 Kn as an allied contingent. I still say that the entry with the largest number of element is 4 x horse archers LH, and that all the cataphracts are under different entries, but he still says it is only a matter of interpretation. 3) Another interpretation from goldenhord is that " Any third element is the player's choice from elements yet unused" means that the troop types already chosen as general and large number cannot be chosen as the third element. Exemple with the issue about a Commagene ally (II/44) : - 1 x Gen 4Kn or 4Pk, - 1 x 4Kn or LH, - 2 x LH, - 2 x 4Pk/4Bd, - 4 x 3Bw, - 1 x 4Pk or 4Ax or 4Wb, - 1 x Ps. Ally must include - 1 x General 4kn or 4 Pk - 1 x 3 Bw - any element that does not belong to the lines in bold (ie, you cannot choose another 3Bw)
To the contrary, my understanding is that Ally must include
- 1 x General 4kn or 4 Pk
- 1 x 3 Bw
- any element of 4Kn, LH, 4Pk, 4Bd, 3Bw, 4Ax, 4Wb, Ps.
What do you guys here think ? Thank you in advance for your help. PS onurbm and goldenhord if I did misunderstand you point, feel free to correct. |
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Post by hodsopa on Dec 5, 2023 16:34:31 GMT
I have always assumed, without thinking too hard, that the interpretation of onurbm is the right one.
Paul H
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Post by Les1964 on Dec 5, 2023 16:45:45 GMT
p. 31 "ALLIED CONTINGENTS"
"An allied contingent must include the general's element of its army [...] and at least 1 element from the entry with the largest number of element. [...] Any third element is the player's choice from elements yet unused."
1) One interpretation of the whole sentence is that : - You must choose one element that is valid for the general
- You must choose one element under the unique entry with the highest number
- You must choose one element which can not be choosen among the elements labeled "General"
That's the way I play it . "2) Another interpretation is that "at least 1 element from the entry with the largest number of elements" refers to the kind of element that are the more numerous possible."If that was the case wouldn't it say entries not entry ? |
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Post by menacussecundus on Dec 5, 2023 17:30:41 GMT
I agree with Les1964 - and with you, cgd. The third element is from the elements yet unused, not from the types of element yet unused. It's a free choice from the (non-general) elements available. |
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Post by Baldie on Dec 5, 2023 18:38:19 GMT
What they all said
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Post by paulisper on Dec 5, 2023 18:39:52 GMT
The issue with onurbun’s claim is that he’s ignoring the fact you can have upto 10xLH, so he’d have to take 1xLH as the most numerous troop type possible in the list, if you roll with his logic…
P
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Post by coyote139 on Dec 5, 2023 18:45:03 GMT
I agree with Les1964 - and with you, cgd . The third element is from the elements yet unused, not from the types of element yet unused. It's a free choice from the (non-general) elements available. Same thing for me. Regards Claude |
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Post by skb777 on Dec 5, 2023 21:43:54 GMT
'I still say that the entry with the largest number of element is 4 x horse archers LH, and that all the cataphracts are under different entries" Correct
'3) Another interpretation from goldenhord is that "Any third element is the player's choice from elements yet unused" means that the troop types already chosen as general and large number cannot be chosen as the third element.' - Correct
I'd say that any other interpretation is just willfully misunderstanding it to get 3x4Kn in your army. |
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Post by menacussecundus on Dec 5, 2023 23:18:44 GMT
'I still say that the entry with the largest number of element is 4 x horse archers LH, and that all the cataphracts are under different entries" Correct
'3) Another interpretation from goldenhord is that "Any third element is the player's choice from elements yet unused" means that the troop types already chosen as general and large number cannot be chosen as the third element.' - Correct
I'd say that any other interpretation is just willfully misunderstanding it to get 3x4Kn in your army. I agree with you on your first point, but disagree on the one you have labelled 3). There has to be one LH in a Parthian allied contingent, but the other two can both be 4Kn if the player wishes. |
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Post by skb777 on Dec 6, 2023 12:11:29 GMT
'I still say that the entry with the largest number of element is 4 x horse archers LH, and that all the cataphracts are under different entries" Correct
'3) Another interpretation from goldenhord is that "Any third element is the player's choice from elements yet unused" means that the troop types already chosen as general and large number cannot be chosen as the third element.' - Correct
I'd say that any other interpretation is just willfully misunderstanding it to get 3x4Kn in your army. I agree with you on your first point, but disagree on the one you have labelled 3). There has to be one LH in a Parthian allied contingent, but the other two can both be 4Kn if the player wishes. I was quoting menacussecundus from his original point - but using the Parthian Army as an example that would correct as there are so many entries for 4Kn. I don't think it was Barkers intention that Allies is just an excuse to cherry pick the 'goodies' and it's intention is to provide a rounded and balanced composition. But of tha is the only way they can win then let them have it. |
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Post by ronisan on Dec 7, 2023 14:36:41 GMT
Hi folks,
I play it the way goldenhorde does:
3) Another interpretation from goldenhord is that "Any third element is the player's choice from elements yet unused" means that the troop types already chosen as general and large number cannot be chosen as the third element.
Exemple with the issue about a Commagene ally (II/44) :
- 1 x Gen 4Kn or 4Pk,
- 1 x 4Kn or LH,
- 2 x LH,
- 2 x 4Pk/4Bd,
- 4 x 3Bw,
- 1 x 4Pk or 4Ax or 4Wb,
- 1 x Ps.
Ally must include
- 1 x General 4kn or 4 Pk
- 1 x 3 Bw
- any element that does not belong to the lines in bold
(ie, you cannot choose another 3Bw)
Cheers
Ronald
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Post by Les1964 on Dec 7, 2023 16:18:04 GMT
Hi folks, I play it the way goldenhorde does: 3) Another interpretation from goldenhord is that "Any third element is the player's choice from elements yet unused" means that the troop types already chosen as general and large number cannot be chosen as the third element.
Exemple with the issue about a Commagene ally (II/44) :
- 1 x Gen 4Kn or 4Pk,
- 1 x 4Kn or LH,
- 2 x LH,
- 2 x 4Pk/4Bd,
- 4 x 3Bw,
- 1 x 4Pk or 4Ax or 4Wb,
- 1 x Ps.
Ally must include
- 1 x General 4kn or 4 Pk
- 1 x 3 Bw
- any element that does not belong to the lines in bold
(ie, you cannot choose another 3Bw)Cheers Ronald So how would you get a 3 element allied contingent from : II/80d Other Hunnic armies Gen ( Cv or Lh) , 11 x Lh |
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Post by ronisan on Dec 7, 2023 16:37:21 GMT
Hi Les1964,
That‘s a simple one…🤣
1 Cv + 2 LH
or
3 LH.
If there’s nothing to choose from, you can‘t choose.🤣
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Post by Les1964 on Dec 7, 2023 17:59:11 GMT
Hi Les1964, That‘s a simple one…🤣 1 Cv + 2 LH or 3 LH. So you can take more than 1 , none General element of the same type .  |
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Post by menacussecundus on Dec 7, 2023 19:11:02 GMT
Hi folks, I play it the way goldenhorde does: 3) Another interpretation from goldenhord is that "Any third element is the player's choice from elements yet unused" means that the troop types already chosen as general and large number cannot be chosen as the third element.
Exemple with the issue about a Commagene ally (II/44) :
- 1 x Gen 4Kn or 4Pk,
- 1 x 4Kn or LH,
- 2 x LH,
- 2 x 4Pk/4Bd,
- 4 x 3Bw,
- 1 x 4Pk or 4Ax or 4Wb,
- 1 x Ps.
Ally must include
- 1 x General 4kn or 4 Pk
- 1 x 3 Bw
- any element that does not belong to the lines in bold
(ie, you cannot choose another 3Bw)Cheers Ronald So why does "elements yet unused" mean "troop types yet unused", ronisan? |
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