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Post by skb777 on Aug 13, 2023 10:02:26 GMT
I'll ask a slightly different but related question... Why is it easier for Bw to shoot LH than Cv? Cv are a formation of horsemen clumped together - a target rich environment if ever there was one. They will usually be wearing armour, often but not always with shields - but many may still be riding unarmoured horses. LH operate in small dispersed groups moving at faster speeds than Cv as they approach the enemy - so not as target rich an environment by comparison. But they will be wearing very little to no armour on unarmoured horses. I would have thought the pros/cons of each would cancel each other out. So CF 3 vs distant shooting each. No? Never quite understood why 3CV get a freepass against Lb and Kn don't, other than to satisfy three battles in the HYW that the French duly obliged by falling for the same trick everytime. *caveat - I know nothing about medieval warfare* |
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Post by snowcat on Aug 13, 2023 12:54:44 GMT
I think the French did eventually get some successful mounted charges in (after the more famous English victories) and before the French artillery blew the English back across the Channel.
But maybe because the Cv's own shooting is factored in and has something to do with it. Who knows?
I just wonder why LH are easier for Bw to shoot than Cv. Methinks it could just be their relative close combat factors taking precedence over the (missed?) possibility that LH might not actually be easier to shoot down than Cv after all.
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Post by vodnik on Aug 13, 2023 17:05:35 GMT
...i try to understand where the problems are; bows have a factor of 4 against mounted light horse have a factor of 2 anyway cavalry have a factor of 3 anyway  |
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Post by snowcat on Aug 14, 2023 1:20:38 GMT
I should add that 'target rich environments' for Bw (and Art) would also be any deep formations: so 7Hd, Wb with rear support, 8Sp, 4Pk, 6Kn, 6Cv, etc.
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Post by snowcat on Aug 14, 2023 1:41:41 GMT
...i try to understand where the problems are; bows have a factor of 4 against mounted light horse have a factor of 2 anyway cavalry have a factor of 3 anyway Yes, that's right.
What are you actually saying? That you see no problem with Bw shooting vs mounted as written?
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Post by evilgong on Aug 14, 2023 4:36:35 GMT
I reckon Bw is if anything slightly underpowered. Things they have good factors against can quick-kill them. Many armies had a mass of archers as line-of-battle troops but it's hard for them to survive against any serious enemy foot.
I reckon Bw could do with side-to-side support from each-other vs foot in close combat. (Then again Ax could perhaps get rear support from same, vs non-Ps foot, to represent massed 2nd rate troops).
The Bw vs LH interaction is tricky, in V3 the shorter tactical move of LH and the longer range of Bw is partly compensated by LH multi-moves; I guess the LH doubles up ranks for a charge from outside range or makes wide sweeping outflank moves to force the Bw to move more than 1BW and therefore not shoot.
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Post by snowcat on Aug 14, 2023 4:41:23 GMT
Interesting thoughts there. Need more time to think about those properly.
What do you think about the Bw being easier to shoot LH than Cv issue/non-issue?
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Post by snowcat on Aug 14, 2023 8:16:04 GMT
Aha! It's really the heavy foot who are overpowered! They're the real culprits all along!! Anyway.  |
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Post by vodnik on Aug 14, 2023 8:50:23 GMT
...it is a bit hart to folluw your ideas  I prefer plaing interesting battles that satisfy both my opponent and me. Ruledicussions interrupt games and have to be cleared before... |
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Post by jim1973 on Aug 14, 2023 10:14:00 GMT
Interesting thoughts there. Need more time to think about those properly. What do you think about the Bw being easier to shoot LH than Cv issue/non-issue? Maybe because there are less LH than Cav (2v3) per stand? More likely LH are missile troops not looking to get into melee that run into a superior missile weapons system. They are outshot and happen to be sitting on a very convenient way out. Cav probably believe they can fight their way out if they can reach them. Cheers Jim |
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Post by snowcat on Aug 14, 2023 10:42:05 GMT
...it is a bit hart to folluw your ideas I prefer plaing interesting battles that satisfy both my opponent and me. Ruledicussions interrupt games and have to be cleared before... That is because English isn't your native language. I tend to express my ideas very well. Just ask me. |
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Post by snowcat on Aug 14, 2023 10:43:36 GMT
Interesting thoughts there. Need more time to think about those properly. What do you think about the Bw being easier to shoot LH than Cv issue/non-issue? Maybe because there are less LH than Cav (2v3) per stand? More likely LH are missile troops not looking to get into melee that run into a superior missile weapons system. They are outshot and happen to be sitting on a very convenient way out. Cav probably believe they can fight their way out if they can reach them. Cheers Jim That's good. Credit where it's due. |
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Post by Brian Ború on Aug 14, 2023 12:28:44 GMT
I should add that 'target rich environments' for Bw (and Art) would also be any deep formations: so 7Hd, Wb with rear support, 8Sp, 4Pk, 6Kn, 6Cv, etc. Well, in contrast to LH and Cv we may say that 7Hd and Wb are too fast, impetous or too "light" to count as "target rich". And the other heavy foot and cavalry are much better protected by their armament... So I'd say everything's o.k. LH are so vulnerable because of their lack of armour and because they get very close, almost to point blank range... |
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Post by snowcat on Aug 14, 2023 12:48:27 GMT
'Target rich' as in a large area full of clumped meat.
The Cv have to get close too if they want to shoot and charge.
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Post by elviro on Aug 14, 2023 16:35:55 GMT
...i try to understand where the problems are; bows have a factor of 4 against mounted light horse have a factor of 2 anyway cavalry have a factor of 3 anyway Yes, that's right.
What are you actually saying? That you see no problem with Bw shooting vs mounted as written?
I guess vodnik wonders what your initial statement means "Why is it easier for Bw to shoot LH than Cv?" - at least I do. Bw have a factor of 4 against any mounted, be it LH or CV (yet CV has a better factor against Bw than LH), so the question is in what way is it easier for Bw to shoot LH than CV?
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I prefer plaing interesting battles that satisfy both my opponent and me. Ruledicussions interrupt games and have to be cleared before...
