|
|
Post by snowcat on May 29, 2023 12:51:16 GMT
I recommend trialing the suggested 1 BW skirmish-shooting rules + exception from overlaps, 5 BW move and flee 4-5 BW for LH, and see how it goes. It will make them more dangerous, but shouldn't make them world beaters. Then, if that is deemed successful, add in one of the other troop types in the list for claiming the 1 BW shooting, and go from there. Trialing all the 'skirmish-shooting' troop types at once is probably a bit much initially. And remember, Ps and 3Ax are 'Fast' troops. This had me wondering if for 1 BW shooting purposes, LH, LCh and Cv should also be considered 'Fast'. Otherwise, it's just the 'Fast' foot classes that suffer the 'recoil on ties' vs Solid foot in combat and distant shooting (if the Solid foot is shooting back). I think the answer is perhaps 'no', and to leave well alone on this one, as it really only applies to LH, LCh and Cv skirmish-shooting (1 BW) vs 4Bw, Art and WWg, where the latter's common CF of 4 already highly favours the 4Bw, Art and WWg vs LH, LCh and Cv skirmish-shooting on CF 2 anyway. Maybe, though what I find with these situations is it's is more who's idea it is rather than the idea/ If the idea sucks, I'll own it. If it works, and gives LH and other 'skirmish-shooters' something more akin to what they had historically and looks good on the tabletop and doesn't detract from gameplay, I'll be happy to use it. If others come up with ideas that make sense to me, and meet the above criteria, I'll use them. In this thread alone, I've adopted at least 4 other people's ideas. |
|
|
|
Post by vodnik on May 29, 2023 21:13:46 GMT
OK, I think we're going round in circles, but I'd like a continuation with the rules, but not with the home rules...
|
|
|
|
Post by stevie on May 29, 2023 22:26:47 GMT
No problem Vodnik…nobody is forced to use “House Rules”. It’s entirely their own choice. A personal favorite of mine is the “Time Of Day Display”. See →here (Of course, if you want to play a campaign then you have no choice
but to create your own “House Rules” for this, because DBA 3.0
doesn’t offer any…ha, ha, ha.  )
|
|
|
|
Post by snowcat on May 30, 2023 1:08:33 GMT
OK, I think we're going round in circles, but I'd like a continuation with the rules, but not with the home rules... Are you lost mate? This is the House Rules board...
And I'm not seeing any circles. In fact, I see one option from an original proposal being further developed/expanded and now ready for playtesting.
|
|
|
|
Post by Brian Ború on Aug 4, 2023 13:56:54 GMT
Now that I have experienced how poor usual DBA rules work concerning
historical LH tactics, I summarized many ideas of this or other threads for playtesting.
Most ideas are borrowed from snowcat and stevie, thanks for that!
Special additional rules for historically accurate wargaming with LH
Deployment
Terrain and armies deploy on 20 BW tables.
Movement
LH move 5 BW in GG
Any column may perform a second tactical move in GG and a third along a road.
Interpenetration
Any light or fast unit (LH, Ps, 3Ax, etc.) may move, advance, recoil or flee
through any unit facing in the same or opposite direction and vice versa.
It must neither start nor end its move lined up, but its move distance must
be sufficient.
Skirmishing
LH and Ps may enter, cross and leave enemy TZ in any direction and
for any distance.
Overlaps
LH ignore corner-to-corner overlaps, like Ps.
Distant Combat
All Ps = range 1 BW, shooting combat factor of 2 (using their standard combat factors).
All LH = range 1 BW, shooting combat factor of 2 (both javelin LH and bow HA).
Cv bows = range 1 BW, shooting combat factor of 2 (but not javelin armed Cavalry).
All LCh = range 1 BW, shooting combat factor of 2 (both javelin LCh and bow LCh).
All 3Ax = range 1 BW, shooting combat factor of 2 (but not Wb or 4Ax).
Shooting Priorities
All units capable of Distant Combat must shoot at a mounted target in their TZ.
Rear Support
LH neither give nor receive rear support.
If Light Horse doubled
Destroyed in bad going, or by any mounted, Artillery shooting, (remove Bows), if shot in the rear, or by Psiloi. If not, flee.
Recoiling or Evading
“Fast” 3Ax, LH, Ps, and 3Bw may choose to either recoil normally or to evade 2 BW.
|
|
|
|
Post by hodsopa on Aug 4, 2023 14:17:56 GMT
I also like the 5BW move. It is a simple change that could make the difference against Bw. Doesn't necessarily help to simulate their historical sweeping away of other troop types, though, so not enough of a change. At a minimum I would get rid of the rule that says if you are double ranked and the front rank LH would flee, it dies instead. No logic to it and it half-negates one of their few pluses.
|
|
|
|
Post by snowcat on Aug 4, 2023 14:22:02 GMT
Brian Ború
Please check your Private Messages Inbox.
|
|
|
|
Post by hodsopa on Aug 4, 2023 14:26:35 GMT
Peltasts. Ax(F). 40 paces distant shooting. Just sayin'.  If Ps and Ax(F) get 40 paces distant shooting, you can really simulate anti-hoplite warfare. If all you have is Sp and your enemy has psiloi and peltasts . . . Sphacteria! (Under RAW the PS can't do much and the Ax just die.) I feel Sphacteria is too rare a case to merit a rule |
|
|
|
Post by snowcat on Aug 4, 2023 14:31:06 GMT
Peltasts. Ax(F). 40 paces distant shooting. Just sayin'. If Ps and Ax(F) get 40 paces distant shooting, you can really simulate anti-hoplite warfare. If all you have is Sp and your enemy has psiloi and peltasts . . . Sphacteria! (Under RAW the PS can't do much and the Ax just die.) I feel Sphacteria is too rare a case to merit a rule That's okay. (Someone will be along shortly with a few other examples...!)
I did recommend that my idea of 1BW distant shooting for LH horse archers be tested on its own first, before also applying it to Cv horse archers, and before trialing it for various other types, such as certain infantry.
|
|
|
|
Post by Brian Ború on Aug 4, 2023 15:19:29 GMT
Brian Ború Please check your Private Messages Inbox. Done! |
|
|
|
Post by Brian Ború on Aug 4, 2023 15:30:00 GMT
A first playtest of the rules above lead to a tense game with Early Polish still winning 4-3.
The movements in imitation of the "battle dance" of the Golden Horde was quite convincing...
|
|
|
|
Post by paddy649 on Aug 4, 2023 15:35:43 GMT
The trouble with giving Ps, LH and Cav shooting is that it’ll really slow the game down.
No point in giving LH a 5BW move as they can already move 12, with subsequent moves. The trouble is that autonomous, flexible LH are saddled with the same number of PIPs as a rigidly drilled army of Legionnaires. This is wrong. Giving LH (or groups entirely of LH) a 1/2 PIP move makes them play far more historically. Plus it allows them to keep away from shooters.
No corner overlaps for LH is IMHO a good rule.
LH flee from shooting if doubled is also a good rule.
I’d keep the rear support for LH simulating massed dense Skirmishing but the “front rank dies” interpretation should change.
|
|
|
|
Post by snowcat on Aug 5, 2023 2:32:53 GMT
The trouble with giving Ps, LH and Cav shooting is that it’ll really slow the game down. No point in giving LH a 5BW move as they can already move 12, with subsequent moves. The trouble is that autonomous, flexible LH are saddled with the same number of PIPs as a rigidly drilled army of Legionnaires. This is wrong. Giving LH (or groups entirely of LH) a 1/2 PIP move makes them play far more historically. Plus it allows them to keep away from shooters. No corner overlaps for LH is IMHO a good rule. LH flee from shooting if doubled is also a good rule. I’d keep the rear support for LH simulating massed dense Skirmishing but the “front rank dies” interpretation should change. Yes, I did say that the added distant shooting does slow the game down. It does, a little. But for a game that can sometimes be over in minutes, this isn't a deal breaker. Why should the game only reward the shooting of foot bowmen, at the expense of mounted archers? Just to save time? Just because it's part of a 'blue sky' approach? I also said that the 1BW distant shooting idea was primarily to improve LH horse archers, then Cv horse archers, and much further down the queue: foot skirmishers. I'd be quite happy if the rule was limited to horse archers, as it was they I created it for specifically. If there is a better/quicker way to represent/restore the attritional effect of horse archers' shooting, I'd be interested. (QKs have been suggested a la v2.2, but I still see these as too hard and fast . . . but perhaps I am wrong in this.)
Re your 1/2 PIP move for LH idea, discussed in detail previously. Speaking figuratively, I see it as a bandaid on a cancer, an attempt to give LH some additional 'moves & maneuvers' rather than providing them with the frontal degrading/disordering power they had historically in order to address and remove the actual cancer. It's one of the reasons why I abandoned my 'free subsequent moves for LH' suggestion: it was another bandaid, while allowing the cancer of 'frontal impotency' to remain. This impotency does not exist in other popular systems such as ADLG, and did not exist to the extent it does now in the current version of DBA, or even legacy WRG rules (6th & 7th edition spring to mind, with all their foibles!).
If LH move 5BW intrinsically, you don't need subsequent moves, so no need for extra PIPs or 1/2 PIP moves to fuel them. So another non-need for a PIP bandaid.
DBA 3.0 appears to support a Western ordnance in its approach to the battlefield, while under-representing those of more Easterly nations. This could be the root of it.
|
|
|
|
Post by paddy649 on Aug 5, 2023 6:22:57 GMT
It’s not the extra die rolls that’ll slow the game down, it is the extra bounds that they’ll take to reach any form of decisive action as they will always close to TZ and shoot which (if I understand your proposal correctly) will mostly be at 2 vs 4 and be rather ineffective.
|
|
|
|
Post by snowcat on Aug 5, 2023 6:36:07 GMT
I made it that way (initially) because it limits their effect. It makes it hard to achieve combined shooting frontally because of the Threat Zone distance. They need to force a recoil, and then rely to some extent on a low PIP roll from their opponent to not redress their line. Then the LH can use combined shooting here and there because of the recoiled enemy element (being out of Threat Zone distance).
My thinking was to make the horse archers as weak as possible initially with this rule for playtesting. If playtesting showed that they're still unable to do enough degrading/disordering frontally, their chances can always be improved by either:
1. increasing their distant-shooting CF; or
2. increasing the distance of their distant-shooting to 1-1/2 BW (120 paces) (beyond the Threat Zone) and making combined shooting easier.
|
|
)
