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Post by stevie on Oct 4, 2023 13:04:45 GMT
Yes, but only shooting from beyond 1 BW (Threat Zone), (i.e. 1-1/2 BW or 2 BW, etc.). Then you compare the odds: one LH shooter + 2 supports shooting beyond 1 BW = one enemy target at -2, vs 3 LH shooting at 1 BW (Threat Zone) = 3 enemy targets at -0. So you have 1 improved chance vs 3 lesser chances. I tried it with LH shooting vs HI (CF 4). The 2 'sets of combat resolutions' tended to even out. Not sure how this measures up statistically; just recalling what happened throwing lots of dice. Oh I don’t know Snowcat… …a single CF of 2 against Blade CF of 4 has 6 chances out of 36 of recoiling them (and no chance of a kill). Three CF 2 against a single CF 4 has 11 chances out of 36 of a recoil plus 4 chances of a kill. It all depends on what you want the shooting Horse Archers to achieve…breaking-up the enemy formation, or having a chance of killing some of them. If the Heavy Infantry don’t like it, then they’ll have to advance and be drawn out of position, and the Horse Archers, being a form of Light Horse, will just flee if doubled. (All the above combat outcomes are derived from my old trusty “Combat Effects Chart” →HERE )
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Post by skb777 on Oct 4, 2023 13:12:51 GMT
A variable evade move might work. If an enemy unit contacts a LH element it may elect to evade and move straight back 1 d6 BW (minus 1 BW for reaction). The charging unit then completes its full move or as a minimum pursues a further BW. If it contacts the LH then combat ensues. If no contact is made and the charging unit ends within 2 BW of the they may shoot with CF 2 if the LH are Horse Archers. You’d need to address the LH interpenetration rules as well though. Plus I wouldn’t want to combine this with a 1/2 PIP move. My only problem with an evade rule is - who in their right minds would ever charge LH if it evades 100% of the time. A variable evade at least adds some jeopardy. BUT - what is the aim here? If it is to add LH survivability then “no corner-to-corner overlaps” probably does a better job.I suppose it does add extra (rearward) mobility. However, I think the shooting will cause issues with whether it can be supported or not plus if it is a group contacting a group is the evade done in a group or by single elements? That would depend on the situation, who in their right mind would evade with LH if they are protecting another units flank?
When I play the game, admittedly not as much as other here, I generally have an idea where I am going to win it and I want the rest of the guys to annoy or hold up long enough for me to do that. I wouldn't even want my LH to charge into other LH as their CF is too low, sods law will say you'll roll badly and get doubled. Boom your flanks unit is gone. You can evade for ever.
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Post by snowcat on Oct 4, 2023 13:15:33 GMT
Yes, but only shooting from beyond 1 BW (Threat Zone), (i.e. 1-1/2 BW or 2 BW, etc.). Then you compare the odds: one LH shooter + 2 supports shooting beyond 1 BW = one enemy target at -2, vs 3 LH shooting at 1 BW (Threat Zone) = 3 enemy targets at -0. So you have 1 improved chance vs 3 lesser chances. I tried it with LH shooting vs HI (CF 4). The 2 'sets of combat resolutions' tended to even out. Not sure how this measures up statistically; just recalling what happened throwing lots of dice. Oh I don’t know Snowcat… …a single CF of 2 against Blade CF of 4 has 6 chances out of 36 of recoiling them (and no chance of a kill). Three CF 2 against a single CF 4 has 11 chances out of 36 of a recoil plus 4 chances of a kill. It all depends on what you want the shooting Horse Archers to achieve…breaking-up the enemy formation, or having a chance of killing some of them. If the Heavy Infantry don’t like it, then they’ll have to advance and be drawn out of position, and the Horse Archers, being a form of Light Horse, will just flee if doubled. (All the above combat outcomes are derived from my old trusty “Combat Effects Chart” →HERE )Yes, so that's effectively 3(6/36 chances to recoil + 0 chance to kill) vs 1(11/36 chances to recoil + 4/36 chance to kill] I didn't achieve any kills with my dice throws for the LH shooting with 2 supports. And 3 x 6/36 vs 1 x 11/36 tended to even out on recoiling the HI, like I said.
(Would you rather have one go at 1/3 or three goes at 1/6?) (They both worked out much the same for me.)
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Post by stevie on Oct 4, 2023 13:21:35 GMT
Yes, but with no consequences for the HA, as they’re shooting at a distance. (Try that in ‘close combat’!)
And this is why having a range of 2 BW is important… …2 BW + a recoil means that Blade can’t reach the HA. The Heavy foot will have to spend a bound re-dressing their line, or charge in and suffer a few overlaps (advantage to the HA).
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Post by snowcat on Oct 4, 2023 13:25:17 GMT
Then why didn't you mention this when I was proposing increasing the range for the distance shooting to 1-1/2 BW?
(I only stopped at 1-1/2 BW because that's approx 90-100 yards, the range that horse archers typically *began* shooting, prior to their close-range shooting at 50 yards.)
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Post by stevie on Oct 4, 2023 13:33:01 GMT
“Hindsight is a wonderful thing”
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Post by snowcat on Oct 4, 2023 13:37:34 GMT
Would it still work at 1-1/2 BW? Or does it require the minimum of 2 BW?
2 BW = approx 120 metres (131 yards) (Pushing it but OK I guess.)
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Post by snowcat on Oct 4, 2023 13:40:05 GMT
I really cannot believe we're sitting here talking about 2 BW shooting for LH after all the shooting examples I suggested and ran!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Baldie on Oct 4, 2023 13:44:32 GMT
I really cannot believe we're sitting here talking about 2 BW shooting for LH after all the shooting examples I suggested and ran!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Inner peace, chime some bells
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Post by stevie on Oct 4, 2023 13:47:25 GMT
Would it still work at 1-1/2 BW? Or does it require the minimum of 2 BW? 2 BW = approx 120 metres (131 yards) (Pushing it but OK I guess.) Naaa…the move for Heavy foot is 2 BW or 80mm. 1½ BW is 60mm, add on the recoil of 15 or 20mm, and they can still reach the HA. Better to have the recoiled Heavy foot out of range, otherwise there isn’t much point in the HA recoiling ‘em. (Although it'll cost them extra PIP’s to move, as their Group will be broken-up).
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Post by snowcat on Oct 4, 2023 13:56:52 GMT
Would it still work at 1-1/2 BW? Or does it require the minimum of 2 BW? 2 BW = approx 120 metres (131 yards) (Pushing it but OK I guess.) Naaa…the move for Heavy foot is 2 BW or 80mm. 1½ BW is 60mm, add on the recoil of 15 or 20mm, and they can still reach the HA. Better to have the recoiled Heavy foot out of range, otherwise there isn’t much point in the HA recoiling ‘em. (Although it'll cost them extra PIP’s to move, as their Group will be broken-up).Right, so then you're just left with justifying LH shooting from approx 120 metres (131 yards) .
That's pushing it based on a couple of examples I'm familiar with, but not others.
So . . . OK if it 'works' as a mechanic.
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Post by snowcat on Oct 4, 2023 14:00:03 GMT
I really cannot believe we're sitting here talking about 2 BW shooting for LH after all the shooting examples I suggested and ran!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Inner peace, chime some bells Hey Zen, maybe you try creating a long-running thread with stacks of thought and examples, one of which on pg 6 got zero traction, but here we are with an even longer range now and voila!
Here, have some bells!
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Post by snowcat on Oct 4, 2023 14:07:57 GMT
I've saved the 'Combat Effects Chart' by Stevie.
Thanks, that's very good.
*thumbs up*
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Post by stevie on Oct 4, 2023 14:13:21 GMT
Naaa…the move for Heavy foot is 2 BW or 80mm. 1½ BW is 60mm, add on the recoil of 15 or 20mm, and they can still reach the HA. Better to have the recoiled Heavy foot out of range, otherwise there isn’t much point in the HA recoiling ‘em. (Although it'll cost them extra PIP’s to move, as their Group will be broken-up).Right, so then you're just left with justifying LH shooting from approx 120 metres (131 yards) . That's pushing it. Ah, I've thought of that. It's for the same reason that Horse Archers can shoot while Skirmishers with Bows can't... ...the Horse Archers, being highly nimble, can dash forwards to shoot and then fall back again. But . . . OK if it 'works' as a mechanic. It works for me.
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Post by snowcat on Oct 4, 2023 14:16:30 GMT
Yup, I was thinking you'd say something like that. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) But alas, the whole idea of LH distant shooting currently - and for the perceivable future at least - has no traction other than in our homes. So where does that leave us?
Don't say, 'In our homes.' ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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