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Post by mthrguth on Apr 24, 2023 11:43:46 GMT
Briefly, the Byzantine rebel commander in North Africa was defeated by Germanus at Scalae Veteres in 537. His Moorish 'allies,' failed to provide his army with support, in fact, joining the opposing Royalist Byzantines under Germanus.
Somehow, Stotzas survived for another 7 years. He and his remnant troops, now allies of the Moors, delivered the decisive flank attack at Thacia/Siccaveneria in 545 CE, during which Stotzas was killed.
It is not known whether these troops would have been remnant Vandals and Heruls or Byzantine cavalry, all were present in the army of Stotzas in 537.
This is documentation that the Moors should have some access to Vandal/Byzantine allies in 545.
There is also likely evidence of Byzantine remnants allied with Moors opposing the Muslim conquest of North Africa in 681 AD. The Moorish leader at the time was the color pagan, Jewish, Queen, eunuch, sorceress, The Kahina.
She even has her own 'Biography,' and statue in Baghai, Algeria.
ABDELMAJID HANNOUM, Colonial Histories, Post-Colonial Memories: The Legend of the Kahina, a North African Heroine, Studies in African Literature (Portsmouth: Heinemann, 2001). Pp. 235. $59.95 cloth
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Post by mthrguth on Apr 24, 2023 12:20:56 GMT
Evidence for Byzantine allies of a Berber king in about 682 AD:
Gibbon writes, Uqba, "this Mahometan Alexander, who sighed for new worlds, was unable to preserve his recent conquests. By the universal rebellion against muslim occupation of the Greeks and Africans he was recalled from the shores of the Atlantic." On his return, a Berber-Byzantine coalition under the berber king of Altava known as Kusaila ambushed and crushed his forces near Biskra, killing Uqba and wiping out his troops.
Then, adds Gibbon, "The third general or governor of Africa, Zuhayr, avenged and encountered the fate of his predecessor in the Battle of Mamma. He vanquished the native population in many battles but he was overthrown by a powerful army, which Constantinople had sent to the relief and liberation of Carthage."
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Post by mthrguth on Apr 24, 2023 14:44:36 GMT
The Byzantine and 'Vandal' allies of the Moors are also in the DBMM books apparently.
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Post by stevie on Apr 24, 2023 16:50:30 GMT
You are right, the DBMM II/57 Later Moorish army list allows:-
II/84 Vandal fugitive allies (533-548 AD),
III/4 Byzantine deserter allies (546-548 AD),
And III/29 Byzantine allies (in 681 AD only).
If they can have allies in DBMM, then why can’t they do the same in DBA 3.0?
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Post by snowcat on Apr 25, 2023 0:30:03 GMT
Yes, there is some 'weirdness' that happened with a few armies between DBMM and DBA, their allies being part of it. (I commented on the Wallachian list and their allies recently.)
Good spotting. The more of these things that get picked up, the better.
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Post by Les1964 on Apr 25, 2023 10:01:57 GMT
If they can have allies in DBMM, then why can’t they do the same in DBA 3.0? Could it be there wasn't enough troops , to make an allied contingent for DBA ? |
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Post by mthrguth on Apr 25, 2023 16:34:02 GMT
Dear Les 1964,
I don't know the formula. The DBMM books list allow 12 Early Byzantine allies for the MOors; the minimum number of bases for Moorish troops is 40; so that would be 23% of a total force including only minimal Moors, perhaps a little short of 25% of a DBA alliance. But, it would be more than 25% of the points. The Vandal allies only have 8 elements.
But, the later Thematic Byzantines have no restriction to numbers in 681 AD. They could max out at 8 superior cavalry, 2 bows, 4 spears and a couple of light infantry so about 16 elements; about 28% of a combined force element, not point, wise.
By comparison, looking at 1/52 Early Hoplite Greeks it appears that 8 Athenian Hoplite allies can be added to a Thessalian army starting with 24 hoplites in DBMM, or less than 25%. The Athenians also appear as a DBA ally.
If the Vandal and Byzantine allies are not enough to be a separate allied contingent then perhaps they should appear just as troop options; as occurs in many lists.
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Post by snowcat on Apr 25, 2023 23:38:18 GMT
Possibly also worth remembering that an element in DBA represents at least double its DBMM equivalent in numbers of troops.
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Post by stevie on Apr 26, 2023 8:01:50 GMT
How big is a DBA army? Well, we know that Alexander the Great invaded the Persian Empire with some 43,000 foot and 5,000 mounted, which when divided into 12 elements comes out as roughly 4,000 men per unit. Likewise, we know that a Roman Consul commanded two Roman legions and two Latin ‘legions,’ with some Italian allies, about 22,000 foot plus 2,000 mounted, so a combined two consular army was also about 48,000 men in total, which again divided by 12 elements also comes out as roughly 4,000 men per unit. However, a Persian army was between 100,000 and 200,000 strong, which would be either 8,000 or even 16,000 men per element (and a mere three 16,000 man elements would equal Alexander the Great’s entire army!). On the other hand, Dark Age Viking and Anglo-Saxon armies would be much smaller, only about 4,000 or 5,000 men, rarely more, which is only 400 men per element. ConclusionA DBA army can be any size you want it to be…and the same goes for any allied contingent.  |
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Post by Les1964 on Apr 26, 2023 8:47:33 GMT
If the Vandal and Byzantine allies are not enough to be a separate allied contingent then perhaps they should appear just as troop options; as occurs in many lists. That is another option , but like the Christian Guard in III/34b and Spanish mercenaries in III/75 , it will end up as one element with several options . |
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