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Post by martin on Mar 12, 2023 8:27:10 GMT
Why not move the Bd 1/2 BW backwards and then 1/2 BW to its right to make frontal contact and get the free slide? Unless you don't get the free slide in BG, something that if true, I was unaware of. Cheers, I didn’t see the facing of the figures…and was following the title of the thread, all about ‘turning 180 degrees’. To make a legal contact, nb WITHOUT turning 180 degrees, Greg may have nailed it - for the nearest Viking to attack the 3figure enemy element what he says works. (I thought they, the 3 figure element, were facing the camera, but not so). Vikings reverse, move slightly to their right and touch front-to-front, then free slide. |
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Post by Brian Ború on Mar 12, 2023 9:27:34 GMT
Here is my analysis of your situation Brian. Let’s call the top of your picture ‘the North’, so the Vikings are facing ‘South’, and their left front-corner is ‘point-A’ while their right front-corner is ‘point-B’. Imagine that ‘point-A’ moves 1 BW to the West and occupies ‘point-B’s’ position, forcing ‘point-B’ to move 1 BW to the North so it touches the enemy’s front-corner. There you go…the Vikings have turned 90° to face the West, made legal contact, and no front-corner has moved more than 1 BW.  Inclined to disagree. The vikings’ front left corner would have to move over 1BW to reach the enemy front left corner (1BW sideways and some distance backwards). I don't think so martin. I think it is sufficient, that the viking's front right corner contacts the enemy's front right corner in stevie's 90° turning movement. |
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Post by stevie on Mar 12, 2023 9:48:04 GMT
Here is my analysis of your situation Brian. Let’s call the top of your picture ‘the North’, so the Vikings are facing ‘South’, and their left front-corner is ‘point-A’ while their right front-corner is ‘point-B’. Imagine that ‘point-A’ moves 1 BW to the West and occupies ‘point-B’s’ position, forcing ‘point-B’ to move 1 BW to the North so it touches the enemy’s front-corner. There you go…the Vikings have turned 90° to face the West, made legal contact, and no front-corner has moved more than 1 BW. Inclined to disagree. The vikings’ front left corner would have to move over 1BW to reach the enemy front left corner (1BW sideways and some distance backwards). Whoops!…my mistake… …I naturally assumed that the Viking 4Bd was on a 20mm deep base, like all my heavy foot are. Then it would be possible:- 20mm for the 4Bd depth, plus 20mm for the 3Ax depth, equals 40mm…the distance the right front-corner needs to move to touch the enemy’s front-corner (leaving the left front-corner to move exactly 40mm to move to the right front-corner’s original position). Oh well, yet another reason to have all your heavy foot 20mm deep.  (Did I mention that I absolutely detest ‘micro measuring’?
It's because I've got huge hands that look like a bunch of bananas.
Still, you know what they say; big hands means a big...er...heart)
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Post by Brian Ború on Mar 12, 2023 13:29:19 GMT
Inclined to disagree. The vikings’ front left corner would have to move over 1BW to reach the enemy front left corner (1BW sideways and some distance backwards). Whoops!…my mistake… …I naturally assumed that the Viking 4Bd was on a 20mm deep base, like all my heavy foot are. Then it would be possible:- ...
This discussion irritates me more and more... I feel like a greenhorn. Why should the base depth of the 4Bd (btw in this case 15mm) suddenly be of any importance? Solid blades move 1 BW only in the woods and may turn in any direction as long as they don't exceed this range. (Edit: Aah, I think I begin to see! The question is whether their turn ends in legal contact with enemy corners touching? We need pictures. And I'll put it into the right thread.– This here shall stay about turning 180°.) |
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Post by menacussecundus on Mar 12, 2023 13:47:36 GMT
Whoops!…my mistake… …I naturally assumed that the Viking 4Bd was on a 20mm deep base, like all my heavy foot are. Then it would be possible:- ...
This discussion irritates me more and more... I feel like a greenhorn. Why should the base depth of the 4Bd (btw in this case 15mm) suddenly be of any importance? Solid blades move 1 BW only in the woods and may turn in any direction as long as they don't exceed this range. Blame Euclid and Pythagoras (and Phil). If both elements are on a 20mm deep base, the RH corner Bd moves back 20mm bringing the two side edges exactly level, then another 20mm (corner to corner, then turns through 90 degrees pivoting on the front corner which brings the LH front corner to exactly where the RH one started . Both front corners have moved 40mm (1BW), which is allowed under the rules. However, if either (or both) is on a 15mm deep base, the move to corner to corner contact is only 30 or 35mm. Turning 90 degrees and still pivoting on the front corner means the LH front corner doen't end the move where the RH one started. It is slightly closer to the viewer (or, to adopt stevie's terminology, slightly further south). And to get to that point, it has to have traveled slightly more than 1BW. |
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Post by Brian Ború on Mar 12, 2023 14:39:35 GMT
This discussion irritates me more and more... I feel like a greenhorn. Why should the base depth of the 4Bd (btw in this case 15mm) suddenly be of any importance? Solid blades move 1 BW only in the woods and may turn in any direction as long as they don't exceed this range. Blame Euclid and Pythagoras (and Phil). If both elements are on a 20mm deep base, the RH corner Bd moves back 20mm bringing the two side edges exactly level, then another 20mm (corner to corner, then turns through 90 degrees pivoting on the front corner which brings the LH front corner to exactly where the RH one started . Both front corners have moved 40mm (1BW), which is allowed under the rules. However, if either (or both) is on a 15mm deep base, the move to corner to corner contact is only 30 or 35mm. Turning 90 degrees and still pivoting on the front corner means the LH front corner doen't end the move where the RH one started. It is slightly closer to the viewer (or, to adopt stevie's terminology, slightly further south). And to get to that point, it has to have traveled slightly more than 1BW. Ah, now I see the problem. But isn't it a minor one? (In Germany we know the nice "Korinthenkackerei" when one sticks to details or rules for their own sake.) Because: 1. The viking RH corner moved less than 1 BW to conform with the enemy's front RH corner. 2. The move ends in flank contact and the viking's LH corner doesn’t need to be exactly in this place to establish the full flank contact. 3. Figure 6.c) of the diagrams concerning turning units and interpenetration state that "the men making up an element are not fixed in a rigid formation" and "may move as individuals". My only questions are now: What would the umpire say? And: What are the consequences if I turn the 4Bd a full BW legal move which ends with contacting the enemy flank, but the viking RH corner ends 5mm to the right of the enemy's RH corner? (See picture.) Do I get a free slide now to conform?  |
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Post by menacussecundus on Mar 12, 2023 14:46:31 GMT
No. The "free slide" only applies to front edge to front edge contact.
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Post by stevie on Mar 12, 2023 17:01:49 GMT
I’m afraid Menacussecundus is right:- 1) No free sideways slide unless contacting the enemy front-edge… 2) And your 2nd picture is an illegal contact…corners must touch each other. (See Moving Into Contact on page 9, and also figures 12a to 12d, and 13a to 13e)What can I say…heavy foot don’t like being in hindering terrain that reduces their speed. Interestingly, HoTT has a much simpler (and I think better) system, that doesn’t require fiddly awkward frustrating ‘micro measuring’. Tactical Move Distances on page 19 of the HoTT 2.1 softback edition says:- “Movement is not measured when an element starting its move in an overlap position pivots into front edge contact with an enemy flank.” However, this still wouldn’t apply to your Viking situation, as they have gone passed the enemy element and are not currently overlapping them. So it looks like we will need micrometers and microscopes to play DBA.  (Or play on a grid…  ) |
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Post by Brian Ború on Mar 12, 2023 17:26:29 GMT
I’m afraid Menacussecundus is right:- 1) No free sideways slide unless contacting the enemy front-edge… 2) And your 2nd picture is an illegal contact…corners must touch each other. (See Moving Into Contact on page 9, and also figures 12a to 12d, and 13a to 13e)What can I say…heavy foot don’t like being in hindering terrain that reduces their speed. Interestingly, HoTT has a much simpler (and I think better) system, that doesn’t require fiddly awkward frustrating ‘micro measuring’. Tactical Move Distances on page 19 of the HoTT 2.1 softback edition says:- “Movement is not measured when an element starting its move in an overlap position pivots into front edge contact with an enemy flank.” However, this still wouldn’t apply to your Viking situation, as they have gone passed the enemy element and are not currently overlapping them. So it looks like we will need micrometers and microscopes to play DBA. (Or play on a grid… )Grid? No, never!  In the meantime I also found out, that these movements are not allowed. Heavy blades are simply not made for strolling in the woods... (See figure 10. which states that "the move must be either cancelled or ended short, prior to contact.") Conclusion: Although I like the look of the thin band of a Bd shieldwall, I think I must go and rebase all of them on 20 mm BD... |
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Post by jim1973 on Mar 12, 2023 21:50:00 GMT
What a disturbing discussion! You've proved that the heavy blades in woods can "moon walk" into a legal flank contact from this position.
But in the more common position of front corner to front corner overlap they cannot close the door and flank the enemy as the moving corner has to move 1.4 BW!
Let's adopt that HOTT rule as soon as possible!
Jim
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Post by jim1973 on Mar 12, 2023 23:11:24 GMT
Going back to the original question, I can understand the PIP cost but cannot fathom the movement cost to simulate troops turning on the spot. Face left, face right, about face would be pretty intuitive for any soldiers during any age. The only real limitation should be the proximity of the enemy. You wouldn't turn your back unless you're running away.
Jim
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Post by skb777 on Mar 12, 2023 23:44:48 GMT
Going back to the original question, I can understand the PIP cost but cannot fathom the movement cost to simulate troops turning on the spot. Face left, face right, about face would be pretty intuitive for any soldiers during any age. The only real limitation should be the proximity of the enemy. You wouldn't turn your back unless you're running away. Jim This was my point, you'd have to stand there untl you were attacked, pipi's not allowing. At which point only those attacked could turn. |
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Post by martin on Mar 13, 2023 7:34:45 GMT
What a disturbing discussion! You've proved that the heavy blades in woods can "moon walk" into a legal flank contact from this position. But in the more common position of front corner to front corner overlap they cannot close the door and flank the enemy as the moving corner has to move 1.4 BW! Let's adopt that HOTT rule as soon as possible! Jim Inclined to agree, Jim….but the ‘close the door for free’ rule (as per Hott) was already in previous versions of DBA, and then mysteriously disappeared under v3. It changed a few dynamics…and made the new rough going terrain type more problematic for solid foot. |
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Post by sheffmark on Mar 13, 2023 9:13:32 GMT
Going back to the original question, I can understand the PIP cost but cannot fathom the movement cost to simulate troops turning on the spot. Face left, face right, about face would be pretty intuitive for any soldiers during any age. The only real limitation should be the proximity of the enemy. You wouldn't turn your back unless you're running away. Jim Ah Jim but what you'd actually be asking that unit to do once it faced right would then be to expand out in a formed manner, (as each individual facing right would form a column) and then, whilst maintaining the shield wall, to either incline to their right (was this a move taught in the Viking era I wonder?) or wheel, in a wood through brambles, bushes and trees etc, all the while maintaining close contact with the individual to their left and right. I don't think that would be an easy manoeuvre to perform. Unless we assume that the unit formation was much looser and each warrior was happy to fight in a more individualistic style and so had more freedom of movement, but isn't that what 3Bd represents and of course they wouldn't have this problem. I have this vague recollection of someone who was involved in re-enactment saying how much more difficult it is to get a body of troops to perform any even simple manoeuvre then people would think. But maybe there's someone on here who has a much more detailed knowledge of that? |
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Post by jim1973 on Mar 13, 2023 9:22:03 GMT
Hi sheffmark!
Left and right face were for effect. Agree that the troops would need to expand out, etc.
But about face (turning 180) puts you in the right position immediately.
Cheers
Jim
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