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Post by dpd on Jan 11, 2023 3:33:49 GMT
The Pontic army of Mithridates supposedly switched from pike phalanx to the creation of "imitation legions" on the Roman model, as reflected in the army list:
II/48 lx3Cv (Gen), lx3Kn or 3Cv or 2LH, lx2LH, (lxSCh + 4x4Pk) or (5x4Bd), lx4Ax, 2x3Ax or 2Ps, lx2Ps.
I'd suggest that what Roman observers were seeing was not imitation legions but the final development of the Greek Pelta, the Thorakitai.
"Initiation legions" were a myth based on mistaken observations by Mithridates' Roman enemies.
And as such, the 5x4Bd should be replaced with 5x4Ax.
The evolution of medium infantry (capable of both missile and melee action) armed with javelins as an transition type between heavy hoplite/phalangist and light Psiloi is an interesting subject in itself.
The Pelta was always distinct from Psiloi and never a pure skirmisher - not to be confused with javelin armed Psiloi akontia for the same reason that bow armed Psiloi toxotai were different than massed bowmen like Persian Immortals.
(Sling armed troops like the Psiloi sphendonetai were never anything but skirmishers because slingers could never operate in a close massed formation like javeliners or bowmen due to the need for elbow room to work their slings - until later developments in the bow by the end of the ancient era, the sling was the best skirmish weapon of all.)
During the Hellenistic age, the Pelta evolved into the more heavier armored Thureophoroi which later evolved further into the even heavier Thorakitai which were nearly identical to legions.
The legion, in turn evolved independently from similar Italian and Spanish troop types. Romans also had their own slingers (Funditori), javelin skirmishers (Velites) and skirmisher bow (sagitarii) that develped indpendentaly from their Greek counterparts.
A case of convergent evolution?
Which raises another question: is the legion just a heavy auxilia instead of a true blade unit?
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Post by gonatas on Jan 11, 2023 6:50:00 GMT
I recently had occasion to look carefully at Mithridates wars with Rome. One of the things I have taken away from it is that the "imitation" was one of organisation - not necessarily one of equipment and fighting style. Having said that Roman legionnaries were given a tough time by the reorganised Pontics. As we know, under the rules at present, 4Bd would not be too concerned by 4Ax toe to toe. Battlefield flexibility may be a more important signifier of effectiveness than equipment.
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Post by jim1973 on Jan 11, 2023 7:20:50 GMT
I think gonatas hits the nail on the head. DBA is (supposedly) more about battlefield performance than actual equipment. Best example is Vikings. Historically, they were mostly spearmen using shieldwall but the Bd/Sp interaction gives historically plausible results against Anglo-Saxons. On the flip side though most people dislike 4Ax because they don't give historically plausible outcomes.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by dpd on Jan 11, 2023 10:33:01 GMT
"DBA is (supposedly) more about battlefield performance than actual equipment."
True. Which is why javelin throwing Psiloi Akontia and bow shooting Psiloi Toxotai are treated as Psiloi and not as Auxilia or Bow.
Perhaps we need a new unit, a "Heavy Auxilia".
Imitation legions are Thorakitai and therefor "Heavy Auxilia", not blades.
For that matter, javelin hurling (and later plumbata throwing) Roman legions should also be considered as "Heavy Auxilia".
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Post by dpd on Jan 11, 2023 10:44:30 GMT
Judging by their evolutionary origins as elite barbarian troops (Huscarls, Varangers, Gallowglass, etc. - later evolving into Halberdiers, Billmen and other polearms), Axemen are actually a heavy form of Warband as fighting with an axe is different in both style and tactics than fencing with a sword.
And so the entire classification of "Blade" dissolves into Heavy Auxilia for the swordsmen and Heavy Warband for axemen.
Similarly, Pike evolved from Spear and is actually a heavy form of Spear.
And while Bows did not evolve from slings, advances in bow technology by the end of the Roman Empire (thumb rings, early crossbows, etc.) allowed the bow to replace the sling which had previously been the dominant missile unit on the battlefield.
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Post by dpd on Jan 11, 2023 11:00:43 GMT
P.S. Interesting how form follows function and how sometimes function follows form.
Slingers need a lot of elbow room to work their slings and could not be used in massed formations - making them most effective as skirmisher screening the main body of the army.
Bows could shoot shoulder to shoulder in massed formations - and that how they were usually used on the flanks of the main heavy infantry line (Persian sparabara, English longbowmen at Agincourt and Crecy, Byzantine archers under Narses at Taginae, etc.)
And flexible medium infantry hurling javelins (and equally capable of both missile and melee combat) were usually used to provide rear support, rear protection and flexible flanking maneuvers for the main body of heavy infantry (which is where Alexander used them in his Macedonian battle line).
And so as a tactical hint: psiloi/slingers go in front, massed archers on the flanks and medium troops in the rear of the main battle line.
Perhaps we need special rear support rules for Auxilia and enfilade shooting bonuses for Bow?
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Post by dpd on Jan 11, 2023 11:06:09 GMT
Interesting speculation:
If Rome had been completely destroyed early on by the Gauls, and the empire never emerged and the legions never created, the Thorakitai used by Hellenistic armies would have evolved into something indistinguishable from the legions.
It was the next logical step in their evolution. How about a DBA army where the heavy infantry consists of both Pike forming a solid front wall backed up and flanked by more agile units of legion-like Blades, combining the infantry of both Alexander and Caesar?
It would be unstoppable.
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Post by aelbert on Jan 11, 2023 11:22:52 GMT
Hi,
there is a free download article on the WRG site about Hannibals legionairs which addresses this point nicely. Basically it argues that equipped like Romans they fought like Romans, otherwise why chance equipment in the first place
Cheers B
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Post by stevie on Jan 11, 2023 11:34:47 GMT
Actually, the Mithridatic Blades are badly named… …they should really be called ‘Exiled Legionaries’.
Mithridates VI of Pontus choose his expansion in the middle of several Roman Civil Wars, i.e. the Italian allies wanting full Roman citizenship, Marius v Sulla, Sertorius in Spain v Pompey, then Pompey v Caesar. And many on the losing side voluntarily chose exile rather than live under their political enemies.
So nothing to do with the supposed evolution of Thorakitai into heavier Blades.
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Post by dpd on Jan 11, 2023 13:41:55 GMT
As I understand it, Roman deserters trained these new "imitation legions" for Mithridates but did not make up the bulk of the rank and file.
We don't have a lot of documentation on them, but it makes sense to take existing Thorakitai and Thureophoroi and upgrade them to legion-like formations.
Their kits (Celtic shield, short sword, javelins, etc.) were already remarkably similar and what would have separated them would be the training from the Roman deserters.
So you would be correct with the upgraded Pontic troops no longer being auxilia but acting as blades.
However.... it's kind of a gray zone with heavy Thorakitai acting almost like blades and javelin hurling manipular Legions acting almost like flexible (but heavier) auxilia.
So we can still consider sword blades to be upgraded auxilia, pikes to be upgraded spears, axe blades being upgraded warbands (developing independently later during the dark ages), and massed bows being upgraded skirmishers.
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Post by dpd on Jan 11, 2023 13:52:59 GMT
As mentioned above, how about special enfilade shooting bonus for bow units?
With a range of 3 bw a pair of bow units separated by this range distance (assuming heavy foot in between) would have overlapping "fields of fire" shooting enemy units between them in enfilade.
This would give each bow unit a +1 attack bonus against all types of troops within the enfilade.
Partial enfilades would exist at the center points of bow pairs 4 and 5 bw apart (within range of both bow units where their ranges overlap).
This would do for massed bowmen what the side support "shield wall" rule does for spear units.
Maybe replay Agincourt with this enfilade rule and see what happens to French knights.
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Post by Les1964 on Jan 11, 2023 16:12:02 GMT
As I understand it, Roman deserters trained these new "imitation legions" for Mithridates but did not make up the bulk of the rank and file. Probably why they are Reg Bd ( inferior ) in DBMM .
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Post by dpd on Jan 12, 2023 1:27:29 GMT
Speaking of evolution, the legions of the late Roman empire always make for an interesting study.
Armed with a quiver of plumbata darts in the hollow of their shield, which went back to the more oval Celtic shield instead of the rectangular scutum, and being armed with a long slashing spatha sword replacing the short stabbing gladius - the late Roman legionnaire has more in common with auxilia and thorakitai.
Late imperial legions numbered only about 1,000 men instead of the 5,000 men of the middle and early empire. 1,000 men was also the size of the imperial Auxilia cohorts.
To all intents and purposes the legions of the late empire resembled Auxilia. Given that Auxilia were very effective against warbands and the main foe of the late empire were marauding barbarians that had to be countered quickly, these late imperial reforms of the legions start to make sense. And instead of being a downgrading of the legion's training and equipment, these reforms are actually a much needed modification to meet changing circumstances.
So perhaps the remaining 4bd units of the Patrician and other later Roman armies should be replaced with 4ax?
P.S. Is there any indication that the legion reforms starting with Diocletian did not really reorganize the legion so much as actually replace it with Auxilia units - which then received legion designations and numbers?
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tera
Munifex
Posts: 1
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Post by tera on Feb 20, 2023 18:54:57 GMT
Thank you for your interesting answer. I also have the same situation and gonna try to figure it out in this question.
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Post by mark leslie on Feb 21, 2023 2:52:55 GMT
Spider senses are tingling.
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