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Post by elviro on Nov 22, 2022 8:27:47 GMT
Did someone already think about using 2D3 for PiP rolls instead of 1D6?
If you have no issue with PiP rolls this idea might not be for you  (but your feedback would still be welcome).
In my limited experience what frustrates some people and/or turns them off regarding DBA ist the feeling that rolling low on PiPs will decide the game against you, and especially a 1 is such a disappointment (and shouldn't playing be fun?). I have no idea (or intention) to fix that regarding combat, but regarding PiPs using 2D3 instead of 1D6 might (or "does" in my point of view) mitigate the problem.
With 2D3 you will still be "within the limits of max 6 PiPs" but you will... ... never throw a 1 again! ... have extremes less often (can someone verify that?), and a tendency to the middle will make play less depended on luck ... have just slightly more PiPs anyway (higher average score I guess, but I guessed in maths too often in school to feel sure)
I see no disadvantage in any way (exept for the fact you need D3 in the first place or simulate them with D6 of course). How would it change play balance? Maybe armies with elements that need two PiPs for movement would gain attraction - but to a point of turning into killer armies? I don't know....
Any other thougts, positive or negative?
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Post by stevie on Nov 22, 2022 9:30:57 GMT
I can do some number-crunching for you Elviro. Assume two 6-sided dice marked 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3. First D3 Second D3
Roll:- Roll:-
| 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 3
| | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | | 2 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 5 | | 2 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 5 | | 3 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 6 | | 3 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 6 |
And here are the results, shown as chances out of 36:- Final Ordinary Two D3
Score Dice Roll Dice Rolls1 PIP = 6 chances --- ( not possible) 2 PIP’s = 6 chances 4 chances (two less than normal) 3 PIP’s = 6 chances 8 chances (two more than normal) 4 PIP’s = 6 chances 12 chances ( twice the normal chances) 5 PIP’s = 6 chances 8 chances (two more than normal) 6 PIP’s = 6 chances 4 chances (two less than normal) |
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Post by Brian Ború on Nov 22, 2022 10:31:23 GMT
I can do some number-crunching for you Elviro. Assume two 6-sided dice marked 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3. First D3 Second D3
Roll:- Roll:-
| 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 3
| | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | | 2 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 5 | | 2 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 5 | | 3 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 6 | | 3 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 6 |
And here are the results, shown as chances out of 36:- Final Ordinary Two D3
Score Dice Roll Dice Rolls1 PIP = 6 chances --- ( not possible) 2 PIP’s = 6 chances 4 chances (two less than normal) 3 PIP’s = 6 chances 8 chances (two more than normal) 4 PIP’s = 6 chances 12 chances ( twice the normal chances) 5 PIP’s = 6 chances 8 chances (two more than normal) 6 PIP’s = 6 chances 4 chances (two less than normal) This means the 2D3 method produces a high possibility for each player to use 3 to 5 PIPs in his turn. In this way both armies will behave as highly disciplined troops and their ability of movement becomes a bit more predictable and faster. Thus the game would be more like that of two heavy wrestlers, or of two highly experienced generals. Personally I'm absolutely fascinated by the usual DBA game mechanics and their power to create a unique time flow and chaos from order. I think the usual PIP throw simulates much better the difficulties of the unforeseen and its impact in battle. But the main point is, the usual PIP throw offers two special things: it heightens the tension (when you keep on wondering wether your elaborate battle plan will unfold just in time or not), and finally, a throw of 6 might give you the possibility to turn the tide and snatch victory right from the hands of your enemy. But only if you use your PIPs well. Two dice? One is enough for me. |
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Post by menacussecundus on Nov 22, 2022 13:13:31 GMT
Using two D3 would mean the plough never turned into rough going (unless it becomes rough if the defender rolls a 2 for PIPs in the first bound).
And players would always be able to move Hd, El, Art and SCh - assuming they are within command range.
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Mr.E
Beneficiarii
New comer to DBA
Posts: 64
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Post by Mr.E on Nov 22, 2022 16:48:48 GMT
i think you make it over complex, i love when my opponent throw a 1 as pip. look it the other way!
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Post by Brian Ború on Nov 22, 2022 17:10:34 GMT
But as a house rule I really like to try it.
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Post by elviro on Nov 23, 2022 7:05:16 GMT
Thanks Stevie for the number-crunching and everyone for their toughts so far. To be honest, the tendency towards the middle looks somewhat stroger than I had imagined (but there could actually be a little error in perception on my side, "two more / two less" might sound more than it is depending on what numbers your coming from, but, surely, "twice" is double no way around that*). Yet a lot depends on what you believe to be the "reality" a simulation tries to... simulate... and what constitutes (can you say that?) "fun" for you. I personally hate it when my opponent throws a 1 as PiP. Well, most of the time, and at least almost as much as that happening to myself.
*P.S.: Almost totally off-topic and contradicting myself - speaking about errors in perception: doubling a slim chance still leaves you with a slim chance  |
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Post by stevie on Nov 23, 2022 10:21:42 GMT
I agree with you Elviro about the luck. It’s frustrating when your opponent has more luck than you… …and embarrassing when you have more luck than them. (Many players, like myself, actually apologize when they are too lucky)One thing you could try to even-out the luck is to use playing cards instead of rolling dice, at least for PIP’s (see fanaticus.boards.net/post/33487/ ) That way you can make sure that both sides get the same number of ‘ 1’s’ and ‘ 6’s' for PIP’s, even though you can’t guarantee when. |
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Post by martin on Nov 23, 2022 10:44:55 GMT
One thing I remember written by David Kuijt, formerly a very active member on Fanaticus, was that a player should plan at all times for how he would act if he threw a ‘1’ for PIPs…..he suggested that the game was a PIP management exercise, and a player shouldn’t get his forces in such a scattered mess that a one was disastrous (though we all do 😎).
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Post by stevie on Nov 23, 2022 11:57:53 GMT
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Post by Baldie on Nov 23, 2022 18:23:38 GMT
One thing I remember written by David Kuijt, formerly a very active member on Fanaticus, was that a player should plan at all times for how he would act if he threw a ‘1’ for PIPs…..he suggested that the game was a PIP management exercise, and a player shouldn’t get his forces in such a scattered mess that a one was disastrous (though we all do 😎). Up table, weep a little whilst shouting For F#$&£ sake Works for me |
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Ainkatsiss
Evocati
My english is... what it is. If you don't understand me, please ask me to clarify ;-)
Posts: 104
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Post by Ainkatsiss on Nov 25, 2022 10:39:26 GMT
What i really like (even if i'm very new to the game), is this unpredictability (does this word exist ?) of how many troops i'll be able to move. Many other wargame allow to move too many troops in my opinion. So trying to find the best way each turn to be able to manage a 1 on dice, but also to be able to take advantage of a 6 is a really hard exercice which will take a while for me to master.
But ofc games are made for fun, and you shouldn't just keep a rule only because it's a rule.
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Post by menacussecundus on Nov 25, 2022 11:14:21 GMT
Unpredictability definitely exists as a word in English, Ainkatsiss. And if it didn't, we would have to invent it to cope with the vagaries of fate dealt to us by the Cube of Doom when playing DBA.
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Post by Brian Ború on Nov 25, 2022 11:21:32 GMT
"And next time those darn dice won't let me down again!" (The WADBAG guide to DBA 2.2)
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(but your feedback would still be welcome).
