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Post by menacussecundus on Oct 28, 2022 7:26:42 GMT
A question prompted by another enquiry on one of the Facebook pages.
HCh is in close combat with 4Kn. The result is a tie. Does the 4Kn recoil? (i.e. should one treat the HCh as if it were 3Kn?)
Similarly, 6Kn in close combat with 4Kn. Result is a tie. Does the 4Kn recoil?
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Post by sheffmark on Oct 28, 2022 8:09:21 GMT
Good question!
I'll be interested to see which rules Stevie quotes to argue whatever view he thinks.
I suppose a strict reading of the rules would say No in both cases because HCh and 6Kn aren't 3Kn and the combat outcome only mentions 3Kn. Although 6Kn are simply 3Kn doubled so maybe they should recoil the 4Kn?
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Post by stevie on Oct 28, 2022 8:47:23 GMT
I agree entirely with Sheffmark. (There, I bet that surprised you!  ) |
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Post by pawsbill on Oct 28, 2022 21:31:22 GMT
A question prompted by another enquiry on one of the Facebook pages. HCh is in close combat with 4Kn. The result is a tie. Does the 4Kn recoil? (i.e. should one treat the HCh as if it were 3Kn?) Similarly, 6Kn in close combat with 4Kn. Result is a tie. Does the 4Kn recoil? No and no.
Neither are 3Kn.
Nor are they themselves 4Kn so they wouldn't recoil from 3Kn either.
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Post by pawsbill on Oct 28, 2022 21:33:41 GMT
Although 6Kn are simply 3Kn doubled so maybe they should recoil the 4Kn? I would argue that 6Kn are 4Kn double ranked, despite only having 1.5x the number of figures. They tended to charge at the trot rather than a gallop. |
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Post by stevie on Oct 29, 2022 11:05:05 GMT
I now find myself agreeing with Pawsbill, however…
…if 6Kn charged at a trot, and be considered to extra deep 4Kn,
then they shouldn’t pursue like 3Kn.
Just a thought.
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Post by pawsbill on Oct 29, 2022 21:42:51 GMT
…if 6Kn charged at a trot, and be considered to extra deep 4Kn, then they shouldn’t pursue like 3Kn. It would be pretty hard for the front ranks not to pursue with all the back ranks pushing them forward. |
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Post by jim1973 on Oct 30, 2022 0:07:32 GMT
Rules as Written then the answer is "no" and "no". But is that the intent? To quote PB "Troops are defined (in DBA 3) by battlefield behaviour..."
TROOP DEFINITIONS - "A few armies such as Later Byzantines and Teutonic Order used knights in deep wedges with the most heavily armoured in front and on the sides and lesser troops inside. Why be in a wedge if you are trotting into the enemy?
III/65 Nikephorian Byzantine - "Klibanophoroi were heavily armoured men with normal sized shields on completely felt or leather armoured horses; who fought in deep wedge aimed at the enemy general. They are best represented by a double element (in front 2 figures armed with maces and behind them 2 lesser-armoured archers flanked by lancers). Again, this sounds like a charging unit trying to get more impetus rather than a cataphract unit.
IV/30 Teutonic Orders - "Armies usually included 1 or 2 "spitz" wedges with the best armoured knights in front. Note that ritterbruder "brother knights" were fully armoured men with heavy lances riding destriers similar to western knights, but knechte were not". Again, sounds like charging knights rather than trotting knights. Also, the army lists are: 1 x General (3Kn or 6Kn), 1 x ritterbruder (3Kn or 6Kn)... It doesn't make sense to me that the same troops can recoil the 4Kn in the shallower formation (3Kn) but not in a deep wedge (6Kn).
My view is that this is an oversight and that 6Kn (and possibly HCh but I can't find anything to help determine how they were expected to behave in the game) were forgotten when the combat outcomes between Knights were being developed. But I could be wrong and I would love to know if any of the development team have any notes on this topic.
But, Rules as Written, 6Kn and HCh are not "3Kn" so do not recoil 4Kn on equals.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by timurilank on Oct 30, 2022 6:30:21 GMT
A question prompted by another enquiry on one of the Facebook pages. HCh is in close combat with 4Kn. The result is a tie. Does the 4Kn recoil? (i.e. should one treat the HCh as if it were 3Kn?) Similarly, 6Kn in close combat with 4Kn. Result is a tie. Does the 4Kn recoil? The question has never been raised here. The passage clearly mentions 3Kn and 4Kn. Otherwise, HCH and 6Kn stand their ground on an equal score. |
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Post by timurilank on Oct 30, 2022 6:46:39 GMT
…if 6Kn charged at a trot, and be considered to extra deep 4Kn, then they shouldn’t pursue like 3Kn. It would be pretty hard for the front ranks not to pursue with all the back ranks pushing them forward. Unfortunately, horse don’t take kindly to being pushed, raising their hind quarters to kick. Therefore, visualising an element of 6Kn as a rugby scrum is not quite correct. Philipp von Seldeneck, who fought on the side of Fredrick I, wrote a tactical treatise, ‘ Ordnung für grosse Heere und Schlacten’ (+/-1480). Within the section Cavalry, he details the organisation and tactical employment of the wedge formation. |
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Post by stevie on Oct 30, 2022 8:10:04 GMT
The DBA 3.0 rules does have several minor oversights…
…such as troops shot in the rear turning 180° and ending
up fleeing towards the shooters!
This is why we have the FAQ.
So I’m going have 6Kn pursuing, just like 3Kn do.
And 6Kn recoiling 4Kn on an equal score, just like 3Kn do.
But HCh don’t recoil 4Kn on an equal score, because they
are too ponderous and unwieldy (and once halted, lose
much of their impact and momentum).
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HCh v 4Kn
Oct 30, 2022 8:30:12 GMT
via mobile
Post by jim1973 on Oct 30, 2022 8:30:12 GMT
Personally, I agree with this variant. You could go a smidgen further, given we're now in House Rules territory, and have 6Kn recoil 3Kn on even score.
Jim
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