Tournament Systems

diades
Centurion

Posts: 410

Tournament Systems Sept 25, 2022 16:36:19 GMT stevie likes this

Quote

Post by diades on Sept 25, 2022 16:36:19 GMT

Sept 25, 2022 7:52:43 GMT stevie said:

Just an update on the “5 for a win and 1 point per element for the rest” scoring system.

This was tested at the Bakewell Matched Pairs competition, and overall it went well,
although it had to be adapted slightly as one game ended in a 6-5 win, and Simon didn’t
like the idea of both sides getting 5 points, so I think he decided that the victor should
always get 1 point more than the loser, to make it 6 points to 5 points respectively.

A quick poll at the end of the day revealed that the majority of players liked it, or were
indifferent, with only a tiny minority disliking it.

Overall, I liked it, for the following reasons:-
        * it’s simple, straightforward, and easy to implement…
        * it gives losers points based on how well they did
        (kill three, get three points, kill none, get nothing)…
However, I don’t think this makes it better than other point scoring systems, as many
others also have ‘1 point per kill’ mechanisms. But at least it doesn’t penalize or punish
unfinished games…instead it rewards outright victors by giving them a modest bonus.

(By the way, I think that killing Hordes, Scythed Chariots and sallying civilians should NOT
give any points, as according to the DBA rules these don’t contribute anything to the victory
conditions when playing at home or in a club, so why should they in a tournament?)

A minor tweak might be to simply limit the number of element bonus points to 3 regardless of any more destroyed in defeat.

Simon Senator Posts: 1,123	Tournament Systems Sept 25, 2022 16:46:11 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Simon on Sept 25, 2022 16:46:11 GMT Agree!

sheffmark
Tribune

Posts: 727

Tournament Systems Sept 25, 2022 16:48:42 GMT stevie likes this

Quote

Post by sheffmark on Sept 25, 2022 16:48:42 GMT

Sept 25, 2022 16:36:19 GMT diades said:

Sept 25, 2022 7:52:43 GMT stevie said:

Just an update on the “5 for a win and 1 point per element for the rest” scoring system.

This was tested at the Bakewell Matched Pairs competition, and overall it went well,
although it had to be adapted slightly as one game ended in a 6-5 win, and Simon didn’t
like the idea of both sides getting 5 points, so I think he decided that the victor should
always get 1 point more than the loser, to make it 6 points to 5 points respectively.

A quick poll at the end of the day revealed that the majority of players liked it, or were
indifferent, with only a tiny minority disliking it.

Overall, I liked it, for the following reasons:-
        * it’s simple, straightforward, and easy to implement…
        * it gives losers points based on how well they did
        (kill three, get three points, kill none, get nothing)…
However, I don’t think this makes it better than other point scoring systems, as many
others also have ‘1 point per kill’ mechanisms. But at least it doesn’t penalize or punish
unfinished games…instead it rewards outright victors by giving them a modest bonus.

(By the way, I think that killing Hordes, Scythed Chariots and sallying civilians should NOT
give any points, as according to the DBA rules these don’t contribute anything to the victory
conditions when playing at home or in a club, so why should they in a tournament?)

A minor tweak might be to simply limit the number of element bonus points to 3 regardless of any more destroyed in defeat.

Agreed. If the winner got 5 points regardless of the score and the loser or anyone drawing got a max of 3, that might work.

paulisper Senator Posts: 1,714	Tournament Systems Sept 25, 2022 16:58:20 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by paulisper on Sept 25, 2022 16:58:20 GMT Or just use the Northern Cup system - 18 years in the making and still giving satisfaction every March 😉 P

sheffmark
Tribune

Posts: 727

Tournament Systems Sept 25, 2022 17:22:10 GMT

Quote

Post by sheffmark on Sept 25, 2022 17:22:10 GMT

Sept 25, 2022 16:34:41 GMT diades said:

Sept 25, 2022 11:30:27 GMT sheffmark said:

I think the main potential issue with this system is that if someone is 3-0 or 3-1 down and time is getting short, for some people there is no real incentive to go for a result. This can be frustrating if you're on top but the other player starts to pull back, or delay to play for the draw, because they get a point for this.

In terms of whether people go to play or go to win, I think it's pretty obvious, though it may not be popular to say, but people go to win.
Otherwise:
why do winners get rewarded by prizes,
why does every organiser publish the results table of where people came in the competition,
why is a lot of the chat between games about how each person is doing, how many they've won or lost or how they've won or lost,
why do themed competitions attract 3/4 of the same army which has the best chance of winning, (Mr Smith excepted of course, but then there's always an exception that proves the rule

)
why does one player appear really fed up when his opponent throws 6 after 6 after 6 after 6?

The answer is, because people are trying to win.

I don't see anything wrong with this. After all, it is a competition!

Different people will be more concerned with winning than others, but the issue is not that people are trying to win it's how people try and win, i.e. what are they prepared to do to win and what do people count as 'unsporting'.

If we accept people are trying to win individual games then presumably they are also trying to win the overall competition. So, is it unsporting to play for a draw if you know you're not going to win, but you get a point for the draw and nothing for the loss?

Some people will think that's ok as it's all perfectly legal and within the rules, others won't as it denies the opponent a win they would otherwise have gained given extra time.

Awarding points for a draw but nothing for a loss and nothing for enemy element kills allows, or maybe even encourages this approach.

Happy with all you say Mark.
I have never knowingly played for a draw and only once played for a loss…when 3-0 down on last bound, where a loss was rewarded more than a draw and more importantly, it was a better outcome for my opponent.
I think as much time for games as possible to allow them to play our is best of all, but of course not always possible in tournament conditions.
I do not want to penalise a player who tries to fight back to win when 3-0 down, if timing means it ends in a draw. Reversing a deficit is exhilarating.
I still think element differences or count should be rewarded at the appropriate level of importance.
At the end of the day…happy to play and abide by the rules set by anyone kind enough to run a tournament.

Totally agree "happy to play and abide by the rules set by anyone kind enough to run a tournament."

However I think player should play to maximise their own points rather than have any consideration for their opponent, after all giving a better outcome for your immediate opponent could disadvantage other players in the competition. So I think it's forgivable if someone plays for a draw if they increase their own score by doing so. However if someone plays for a draw when it's no advantage to them but it does penalised their opponent, I don't think that's really on.

If you don't want to penalise a player who tries to fight back to win when 3-0 down, then wouldn't offering points for killing elements make that more likely to happen? Particularly if you're not also risking the loss of your 1 point for a draw if you end up losing?

However as previously stated I don't think there's any perfect scoring system and as you say, if anyone is kind enough to run a tournament they should be totally free to score it however they like.

Post by diades on Sept 25, 2022 16:36:19 GMT

Post by Simon on Sept 25, 2022 16:46:11 GMT

Post by sheffmark on Sept 25, 2022 16:48:42 GMT

Post by paulisper on Sept 25, 2022 16:58:20 GMT

Post by sheffmark on Sept 25, 2022 17:22:10 GMT