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Post by menacussecundus on Aug 8, 2022 10:47:58 GMT
5:4 assumes the Wb are double ranked, which, to be fair, the probably will be, but that gives the Bd an overlap at one end of the line, maybe at both ends.
Maybe put the Ps in front of the Bd to break up the initial Wb attack and aim to hit the stalled Wb - which might even have fragmented if the Ps roll well - with a solid line of Bd and with overlaps at both ends. It is the Bds' move so they get to choose order of combat.
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Post by stevie on Aug 8, 2022 11:06:00 GMT
One solution I like to use is Psiloi Skirmishers. Just by their being out in front they can break-up a line of Warbands, whether they recoil them, or stand on an equal score with 3Wb, or the Ps recoil…and the Warbands can’t kill ‘em (they just flee if doubled). Also, a line of Blades is still superior to a line of rear supported Warbands. Combat factor 5 (needing doubles for a kill) v combat factor 3+1 (with a ‘quick kill’), showing the chances out of 36, i.e. all the possible outcomes of both sides rolling a dice:- Wb Doubled Wb Recoiled Equal Score Blade Recoiled/DoubledBd with 2 overlaps = 12 18 3 3 Bd with 1 overlap = 6 20 4 6 No overlaps = 2 19 5 10 Wb with 1 overlap = 1 14 6 15 Note the items in blue: most of the time the Wb will be recoiled, making it relatively easy for the Blades to get an overlap…or even two overlaps. Plus of course the Wb line, being two deep, will be shorter, exposing their flanks…but the Bd will also be shorter as they need reserves to fill in any gaps. Also, there is no rear support in Rough Going…bad news for the Wb, but fine for Bd. ( All this become easier to understand when using the following chart:-static.wikia.nocookie.net/fanaticus-dba/images/e/e7/COMBAT_EFFECTS_CHART_for_DBA_%26_HOTT.pdf/revision/latest?cb=20190204191800 ) Basically, Warbands don’t like overlaps…but they recoil so often that they just can’t avoid it. Having Psiloi-Skirmishers out in front breaks-up their nice neat Warband battleline.
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Post by Baldie on Aug 8, 2022 11:11:25 GMT
I can concur that my beloved Ancient British are not a world beating force. I do love em to bits however and would like to think someone can make a killer army of them.
I have won with them against Roman's of varying flavours and feel mighty proud when I do.
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Post by Baldie on Aug 8, 2022 12:10:04 GMT
I've only played 2.2, but will be starting in 3.0. In 2.2 Bd wall with Ps support....crunchy Wb snack....6:4 with no overlaps....only a Wb general whose wife is calling him to dinner would just charge in... In 3.0, with no Ps support for Bd...and Wb dont pursue Ps...... How would a Marian Roman general break up a wall of Warband...5:4 before dicing, is not a prospect I'm looking forward to....and I dont see my legions sitting on a hill I like the 6Bd,2Cv,2Ax,2Ps for Marian...or 3Cv,5Bd,2Ax,2Ps I am luck that I only played a couple of games in 2.2 so 3 was really where I started my DBA gaming so cant get caught out by the differences.
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Post by sheffmark on Aug 8, 2022 13:50:55 GMT
most of the time the Wb will be recoiled, making it relatively easy for the Blades to get an overlap…or even two overlaps. However a Bd following up a recoiling Wb does need it's mates either side to do the same or kill the side supports, otherwise it's looking very dicey! One of the things I liked about Wb in 2.2 was the additional move into contact. Not sure why it disappeared in 3.0?
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Post by stevie on Aug 8, 2022 17:14:12 GMT
most of the time the Wb will be recoiled, making it relatively easy for the Blades to get an overlap…or even two overlaps. However a Bd following up a recoiling Wb does need it's mates either side to do the same or kill the side supports, otherwise it's looking very dicey! However a Wb following up a destroyed Bd does need it's mates either side to do the same, otherwise it's looking very dicey...for the pursuing Wb! So it's all swings and roundabouts really.
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Post by megoose on Aug 9, 2022 5:52:24 GMT
How "dicey"?
Both Wb pursue..the killer and the support Wb.
The support WB actually then gives overlap support in the subsequent fights on either side of the gap.
In the next Wb bound, the Wb that broke through (if no 2nd line for Bd side)...has 120mm to run
He can go forward 5mm....get past the Bd...rotate 180...then go 70mm to the left or right....
Say the situation is Bd1B2Bd3WbBd5B6 (Bd4 died)
Next Wb bound:
That warband can get ALMOST front edge to rear edge of Bd2 or Bd6
The Bd pursuit and the Wb pursuit....in no way the same in direness
4:4 (single overlap) or even 3:4 (double overlap) for the Bd that pursued..is survivable...but VERY dire.....and the Wb has options for creating mayham
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Post by menacussecundus on Aug 9, 2022 7:21:11 GMT
Depends a bit where the Wb's mates are and who has the next bound. (I assume you haven't got solid 6x2 block of Wb. Even if you have, there is a good chance the elements at either end of the line will have the door closed on them by some of the remaining 6 Roman elements.)
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Post by Haardrada on Aug 9, 2022 8:46:11 GMT
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Post by sheffmark on Aug 9, 2022 8:56:19 GMT
However a Wb following up a destroyed Bd does need it's mates either side to do the same, otherwise it's looking very dicey...for the pursuing Wb! So it's all swings and roundabouts really. Only if the Romans have a unit behind the line that can contact it. Basically, as menacusseccundus says, the Wb general has to decide, do I double up my Wb in the hope that the slightly extra chance of destroying the Bd's wins me the battle before the Romans get around my shortened battle line and start destroying the flanking troops or taking out the camp etc. The Roman also has other options; As previously mentioned, using Ps v Wb. The Wb don't get the supporting rank but if in two ranks the second one is pinned and the Ps can't be destroyed. Use Cav. The Cav are 3 v Wb 2 and again the rear support doesn't count but is pinned. Use Ax, they are more likely to be recoiled against double ranked Wb but less likely than Bd to be killed outright. The nasty combination is when Dacians bring along some Sarmatian allies. Overall though I think most of the advantages are with the Romans but occasionally the Wb may get lucky and score a famous victory (does that sound like history?)
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Post by Haardrada on Aug 9, 2022 9:27:33 GMT
The nasty combination is when Dacians bring along some Sarmatian allies. Funny enough I was just checking these bad boys out!One option for the Wb is to drag along elements or devise tactics or use terrain (if they do get terrain choice),that can threaten or cancel the Roman overlap before it can outflank the shortened Wb line.
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Post by stevie on Aug 9, 2022 10:25:54 GMT
I agree 100% with you Sheffmark. Much depends on positioning, length of battleline, reserves, terrain, and just pure luck!
Were I to make a very rough estimate, I’d say the Bd army would beat a Wb army about two times out of three, and a Bd army lose about one in three against a Wb army.
It’s this that makes the Gauls/Britons/Germans/etc such a threat to Rome.
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Post by sheffmark on Aug 9, 2022 17:03:51 GMT
The nasty combination is when Dacians bring along some Sarmatian allies. Funny enough I was just checking these bad boys out!One option for the Wb is to drag along elements or devise tactics or use terrain (if they do get terrain choice),that can threaten or cancel the Roman overlap before it can outflank the shortened Wb line. Strangely just been to my brothers and he'd lined up Dacians with Sarmatian allies v Roman (with an El). Pip dice meant the El managed to get into a Kn and avoid the Dacian Ps. The Kn got squished, a Ps plugged the gap but also got squished when the Roman Cav gen hard flanked it. The second Dacian Ps hit the Roman Cav general in the rear and with his back to the El it was instant death to the winner, but the Cav prevailed. Various Kn attacks v Bds were beaten off and then the final combat saw a overlapped Kn destroyed on a 6-6 result. Victory to the Romans
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Post by megoose on Aug 10, 2022 9:55:18 GMT
Nice little report
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Post by Baldie on Aug 10, 2022 16:16:05 GMT
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