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Post by dolphinless on Jun 13, 2022 12:18:57 GMT
I'm about to use a new Hun army & want to make best use of LH, ideally, by an attack on an enemy wing by LH with rear LH +1 support & LH hard flanking. In the (hopefully) rare situation that the element in frontal attack is forced to flee, I assume that the element to the flank also flees (?) What happens to the element providing rear support....does it also flee? As usual, the Barkerese doesn't make things clear (at all).
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Post by stevie on Jun 13, 2022 12:53:11 GMT
I think I can answer your question Dolphinless...but you’re not going to like it I’m afraid.
Although fleeing Ps can pass through any friends, fleeing LH (and fleeing Cv/Cm/Ele/SCh)
can only pass through friendly Ps (see “Interpenetration”, on page 9, first sentence).
In other words the fleeing LH turns, cannot move at all, so is destroyed instead.
So avoid having LH at the front of a column against SCh, Sp, Pk, Bd, Ax, Wb, Hd, WWg,
or when being shot at by Art.
Rear-supported LH columns are best used against mounted (except SCh), Bw, and Ps,
as they are destroyed if doubled anyway instead of fleeing.
I hope that helps.
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Post by hoffmannsama on Jun 13, 2022 18:53:35 GMT
I think I can answer your question Dolphinless...but you’re not going to like it I’m afraid. Although fleeing Ps can pass through any friends, fleeing LH (and fleeing Cv/ Cm/ Ele/ SCh) can only pass through friendly Ps (see “Interpenetration”, on page 9, first sentence). In other words the fleeing LH turns, cannot move at all, so is destroyed instead. So avoid having LH at the front of a column against SCh, Sp, Pk, Bd, Ax, Wb, Hd, WWg, or when being shot at by Art. Rear-supported LH columns are best used against mounted (except SCh), Bw, and Ps, as they are destroyed if doubled anyway instead of fleeing. I hope that helps. Well that's a bummer... seems like it would make sense for LH to be able to flee through LH. Maybe in DBA 4.0.... |
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Post by stevie on Jun 13, 2022 20:35:17 GMT
It appears Hoffmannsama that good old Phil Barker (bless him) has tried to arrange things so that every advantage also has a corresponding disadvantage (well, usually...although 4Ax
seems to have more disadvantages than advantages!).I suppose the rational is that the LH is no longer in a loose open skirmish formation but more like that of a Renaissance ‘Caracole’, with each each rank shooting then peeling-away to let the next rank have a go. And when the blokes at the front say “sod this for a game of soldiers!” and decide to leg it, they find their mates behind them impeding their escape, so are cut down. Oh, and one more thing for Dophinless:- In the (hopefully) rare situation that the element in frontal attack is forced to flee, I assume that the element to the flank also flees (?). ...actually, the “Combat Outcomes” on page 11, third sentence, says:- “A supporting element in close combat against an enemy element’s flank or rear recoils if the friendly element in combat to that enemy’s front recoils, flees or is destroyed.” So they merely recoil, not flee, if their mates doing the fighting are defeated in any way. |
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Post by timurilank on Jun 13, 2022 21:26:03 GMT
I think I can answer your question Dolphinless...but you’re not going to like it I’m afraid. Although fleeing Ps can pass through any friends, fleeing LH (and fleeing Cv/ Cm/ Ele/ SCh) can only pass through friendly Ps (see “Interpenetration”, on page 9, first sentence). In other words the fleeing LH turns, cannot move at all, so is destroyed instead. So avoid having LH at the front of a column against SCh, Sp, Pk, Bd, Ax, Wb, Hd, WWg, or when being shot at by Art. Rear-supported LH columns are best used against mounted (except SCh), Bw, and Ps, as they are destroyed if doubled anyway instead of fleeing. I hope that helps. Well that's a bummer... seems like it would make sense for LH to be able to flee through LH. Maybe in DBA 4.0.... Moving through a formation of horse is a risky business, even if the supporting lines are standing still. The natural instinct for a horse is to take flight when sensing danger, even the best trained will take flight under the right circumstances, much to the embarrassment of its rider. Also, do not overlook the presence of riderless horses in that flight. |
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Post by Haardrada on Jun 13, 2022 21:56:33 GMT
I have always been puzzled by this one as I don't recall reading any battle accounts of this actually happening.
What I have read is that if troops front ranks panic those behind also flee being caught in the confusion.
What also comes to mind is "feint-flight" where the supporting unit should actually be in on the plan and flee along with the other unit?
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Post by stevie on Jun 13, 2022 22:24:53 GMT
Actually Haardrada, the HoTT 2.1 “Fleeing” rule, on page 25, second sentence from the bottom says:-
“Friends it cannot pass through, under or over, nor avoid, are burst through, then flee behind until it stops.”
Sadly DBA 3.0 does not have this very sensible and realistic rule (shame)...
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Post by Haardrada on Jun 13, 2022 22:47:06 GMT
Actually Haardrada, the HoTT 2.1 “Fleeing” rule, on page 25, second sentence from the bottom says:- “Friends it cannot pass through, under or over, nor avoid, are burst through, then flee behind until it stops.” Sadly DBA 3.0 does not have this very sensible and realistic rule (shame)... I was unaware of that rule Stevie as I've never dabled in HoTT since a short glimps of the first rule book many moons ago...it then vanished from the club cupboard.🕵️ But as for a solution you've got it right there.😉 |
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Post by dolphinless on Jun 14, 2022 7:30:58 GMT
All in all, though, the risk of fleeing is very small against most foot
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Post by timurilank on Jun 14, 2022 7:44:54 GMT
Actually Haardrada, the HoTT 2.1 “Fleeing” rule, on page 25, second sentence from the bottom says:- “Friends it cannot pass through, under or over, nor avoid, are burst through, then flee behind until it stops.” Sadly DBA 3.0 does not have this very sensible and realistic rule (shame)... , It's called 'magic'. |
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Post by timurilank on Jun 14, 2022 7:49:21 GMT
All in all, though, the risk of fleeing is very small against most foot True, but it does leave the supporting element within the enemy threat zone. |
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Post by stevie on Jun 14, 2022 9:26:52 GMT
Actually Haardrada, the HoTT 2.1 “Fleeing” rule, on page 25, second sentence from the bottom says:- “Friends it cannot pass through, under or over, nor avoid, are burst through, then flee behind until it stops.” Sadly DBA 3.0 does not have this very sensible and realistic rule (shame)... , It's called 'magic'. No Timurilank...it’s called ‘ morale’.  |
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Post by jim1973 on Jun 14, 2022 9:41:40 GMT
Actually Haardrada, the HoTT 2.1 “Fleeing” rule, on page 25, second sentence from the bottom says:- “Friends it cannot pass through, under or over, nor avoid, are burst through, then flee behind until it stops.” Sadly DBA 3.0 does not have this very sensible and realistic rule (shame)... I was unaware of that rule Stevie as I've never dabled in HoTT since a short glimps of the first rule book many moons ago...it then vanished from the club cupboard.🕵️ But as for a solution you've got it right there.😉 To misquote Obi-Wan Kenobi' "an elegant solution for a more civilised age"  Jim |
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Post by medievalthomas on Jun 14, 2022 21:52:31 GMT
I must admit we did not do a great job with LH in 3.0. It was not one of my main interests and I didn't put a lot of thought into it till after publication. The LH v. Knight interaction is totally screwed up and the lack of a point system means you don't get swarms of LH.
The +1 for rear rank is kinda of sucker bet anyway as it just opens up an overlap in a 12 on 12 game. Not to mention preventing a Flee result.
Have fixed the Knight interaction and point issue but have not contemplated the Flee problem. The +1 represents rotating ranks and probably should not prevent a Flee.
So I'll consider for Knights & Knaves where I can fix stuff.
But the HOTT rule could make it into D3H2 as it (theoretically) uses some HOTT rules (and also has points).
There is never going to be a "Phil" authorized 4.0 to fix problems about which I could care less (and so to Phil) but it is a big issue in some circles.
So I'd be happy to take feedback on whether I should use the HOTT rule in D3H2 which a lot of players use anyway and this would fix the problem (though not the Knight v. LH issue).
TomT
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