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Post by stevie on May 15, 2022 9:26:22 GMT
HoTT 2.1, softback edition, page 17, the very last paragraph from the bottom, says:-
“As soon as aerials are in close combat to their front (even against other aerials),
all ground elements currently in suitable physical contact (including overlaps) also
enter the close combat, and remain in close combat until all physical contact
(except overlaps) is lost after resolving outcome moves.”
(In other words, ALL combat, even air-to-air, is done at ground level)
Now consider the following situation:-
Aerial
██ ← ▌Flyer
ꜜ
↑
▄▄
Spear
Here it is the Red player’s bound, and the Spear contacts the Blue Aerial’s front,
while the Flyer contacts the Blue Aerial’s flank.
How is this resolved? Is it:-
(a) the fight, involving air-to-air combat, is at ground level, and the Blue Aerial cannot
turn-to-face the Flyer since it is already engaged to its front at ground level by the Spear?
---OR---
(b) the Aerial doesn't have its front in combat (the Spear being unable to engage Aerial troops),
so it must turn-to-face the Flyer, and only then does the Spear get involved as a mere overlap?
So basically my question is who does the Blue Aerial face and fight?
Does it fight the Spear, and is flanked by the Flyer?
Or does it fight the Flyer, and is flanked by the Spear?
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Post by sheffmark on May 15, 2022 13:49:11 GMT
Unless I'm missing something I think this may be more complicated than you think Stevie.
Previous paragraph on page 17 - Aerials can engage ground troops in close combat, but cannot be engaged in close combat by ground troops other than a hero or paladin unless already in close combat to their front.
So presumably the Sp can't contact the Aerial as it can't engage it in combat (Is this correct though?)
If so you then have the following problem:-
The flyer contacts the Aerial.
The Aerial only turns to conform "at the end of the movement phase" (Page 21 Flank or Rear Contacts section).
This means the Sp can't contact the Aerial at all, as whilst it is able to move, i.e. in the movement phase, the Aerial does not have it's front edge in close combat!
Therefore the question is can the Sp contact the Aerial even though it can't engage it in close combat?
If we say yes, because the rules don't specifically say it can't, they just says the Sp can't fight the Aerial, then the Sp contacts the Aerial but at that point it is not going to engage it in close combat. The Flyer then contacts the Aerial which turns to face at the end of the move, at which point the Sp can join the combat, (your solution b)
There's just one problem with this, elements don't turn to face flank contacts if they are already in mutual frontal edge contact with an enemy element. (Page 21 Flank or Rear Contacts section)
It doesn't say anything about those frontal contacts actually being engaged in close combat.
So you'd end up with a situation where the Sp is in frontal contact but can't fight, the Aerial can't turn to fight the Flyer, so does the flyer fight the Aerial unopposed and does the Sp help or not?
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Post by stevie on May 15, 2022 16:02:24 GMT
Therefore the question is can the Sp contact the Aerial even though it can't engage it in close combat? Ah, I can help out on this little paradox at least Sheffmark. Page 17, third paragraph from the bottom says:- “Aerials can engage ground troops in close combat, but cannot be engaged in close combat by ground troops (other than a Hero or Paladin) unless already in close combat to their front. In other circumstances an element of aerials whose base is in physical contact with the base of ground troops (other than a Hero or Paladin) is deemed not to be in contact for the purpose of these rules...” (In other words, ground troops can touch an aerial base, but you have to imagine
them as still being separated...vertically instead of horizontally)The above is borne-out by the diagram on page 35, where the front-edge of element-O (Shooters) has moved into contact with the front-edge of element-P (Flyers). The dialogue on page 35 also states:- “ (Ground troops other than a Hero or Paladin cannot engage aerials in close combat unless the aerials are already in close combat to their front)” Option (b) seems to be the answer to my situation example... ...the Blue Aerial unit is NOT in close combat to its front, as Spears can touch but not engage aerials. So the the Blue Aerial unit must turn-to-face the flanking Red Flyers, initiating ground level combat. And once down at ground level, the Red Spear is already in position to join in as a flanking-overlap. That appears to be the correct sequence of events...at least, I think it is... (my brain hurts!)... |
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Post by sheffmark on May 16, 2022 10:12:07 GMT
Totally agree Stevie
However as I mentioned above there is a slight problem in that on Page 21 in the Flank or Rear Contacts section it says:
"An element contacted to flank or rear by an enemy element's front edge must turn to face at the end of the movement phase unless either of the following apply:
It is already in mutual frontal edge contact with an enemy element.
I.E. it doesn't say in frontal edge combat
This means that when the Flyer contacts the Aerial, as it is already in frontal edge contact with the Sp it doesn't turn to face the Flyer!
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Post by stevie on May 16, 2022 12:14:28 GMT
Yes, that is the flaw in my otherwise cunning logic.
Hence the reason for my daft question.
On the other hand, Page 17, third paragraph from the bottom, quite clearly states:-
“In other circumstances an element of aerials whose base is in physical contact
with the base of an element of ground troops (other than a Hero or Paladin)
is deemed not to be in contact for the purpose of the rules...”
So come on all you experienced HoTT players...which one is it.
Does the Aerial element fight the Spear, and is flanked by the Flyer?
Or does it turn to fight the Flyer, and is then flanked by the Spear?
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Post by sheffmark on May 16, 2022 12:23:03 GMT
Ah good point, in which case it's simple, the Aerial turns to fight the flyer and is then flanked by the Sp once it engages in combat.
Sorted!
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Post by stevie on May 16, 2022 12:46:00 GMT
Actually, although I’ve ticked your post as ‘liked by Stevie’... ...the situation is not liked by Stevie. I wanted to ground an enemy Aerial with a lowly Flyer and then hit ‘em with a stronger unit. Well, I can I suppose, but it’s the lowly weak Flyers with a combat factor of 2 that’ll do the fighting. What a pity, what a pity, what a pity. (I need to look for another cunning plan...  ) |
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Post by medievalthomas on Jun 2, 2022 21:07:02 GMT
Logic says its the other Aerial that creates the combat. If a "land" element contacts an Airieal's flank it would not normally turn to face as its a "non' contact.
I see the above mentioned flaw but that really it's just the rule writer forgetting the Aerial exception - happens all the time.
So I'll fix this interesting twist in D3H2 to conform to Stevie's impeccable logic.
So at least for D3H2 you can consider this the definitive ruling.
The second point that Stevie raises about hitting an Element on the flank with a strong Element while distracting the opponent to the front with light troops is an excellent real world tactic that doesn't work in DBX. It needs to be and we have fixed it but that is another issue (this oddity is one of the main complaints of every historical gamer who I teach the system too - till we fixed it).
TomT
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