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Post by Baldie on Apr 5, 2022 18:42:05 GMT
I love Xyston too, but they ain’t 15mm 😱 P You got something about plus size, blood? |
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Post by skalde on Apr 5, 2022 19:34:21 GMT
I have a number of Greek armies using Xyston, Magister Militum and Essex figures but no Museum Z Range. My thoughts are: From a Historical perspective, Xyston are very well researched and probably the most accurate. From a gaming perspective all are OK but the standing pose of the Xyston figures is easier to use on the table than those with sticky-out spears. From a modelling standpoint, Xyston are the most fiddly, with separate shields and you’ll have to drill out those hands for their wire spears. All this looks excellent but takes a lot of extra work. Looking at the ranges then Xyston has far more breadth - probably more than you’ll ever need. So for Greeks, if I were starting now, I’d say go for Xyston if you are a half decent modeller and figure painter. If you are just going to bash them out and game with them then Essex or Magister are great. I would second the recommendation for LBMS decals, especially for Athenians and more general hoplites, but the Theban club is quite simple and a half decent painter could probably freehand them. I’d also advise you to look at Baueda for camps and tents etc. Amazing, thank you for the in-depth answer!
I think Xyston is up my alley - I'm in the hobby for a while, so drilling, freehanding and more complex assembly doesn't really bother me (although I've never used wire spears, that will be interesting). And the fact that the club is comparatively easy to freehand was another argument for the Thebans, because I LOATHE using decals (I mostly use them for inspiration only).
Baueda got my attention already, but I haven't really decided what to do specifically. I also thought about scratchbuilding Thebes itself as a BUA in a smaller scale, but that is only an idea.
Regarding the figures scale paulisper: I saw some comparisons showing them to be much bigger than others, but usually I don't bother about that. As long as the scale fits within an army, I am content. And other people's mini choices I have no control over anyway. So no problem for me. |
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Post by paulisper on Apr 6, 2022 6:59:03 GMT
I love Xyston too, but they ain’t 15mm 😱 P You got something about plus size, blood? Absolutely not - my Thebans and Thessalians are Xyston and they are magnificent, but peeps do need to be aware that they’re more 18mm than 15mm and not try to mix ranges 😆 P |
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Post by paddy649 on Apr 6, 2022 22:56:30 GMT
Honestly Skalde - give LBMS decals a try. They are “sticky water slide” if that is the right term and excellent. I freehanded most of the shields on my Magister Militum Athenians but then went LBMS for the Thessalians and Spartans and didn’t regret it.
When collecting Xyston you’ll find that after one army, say Thebans, then a relitively few more packs allows you to morph them into all the other armies. It’s always good to be able to field any two Greek armies so you can have an opponent to hand. I must admit my favourite Greek army to fight with are the Thessalians but the best looking are my Spartans. However, don’t knock the Aetolians - very dangerous on home turf and an easy army to collect as it has the fewest figures. Oh and then look at the Bosphorans - very dangerous!
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Post by gregorius on Apr 6, 2022 23:43:45 GMT
Paddy649, I like to call the Black Sea Greeks and the Bosporans Hillbilly Greeks 😉.
Cheers,
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Post by jeffreythancock on Apr 7, 2022 0:46:41 GMT
What about the Macedonians?! Paddy649, I like to call the Black Sea Greeks and the Bosporans Hillbilly Greeks 😉. Cheers, |
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Post by skalde on Apr 7, 2022 3:16:16 GMT
Honestly Skalde - give LBMS decals a try. They are “sticky water slide” if that is the right term and excellent. I freehanded most of the shields on my Magister Militum Athenians but then went LBMS for the Thessalians and Spartans and didn’t regret it. When collecting Xyston you’ll find that after one army, say Thebans, then a relitively few more packs allows you to morph them into all the other armies. It’s always good to be able to field any two Greek armies so you can have an opponent to hand. I must admit my favourite Greek army to fight with are the Thessalians but the best looking are my Spartans. However, don’t knock the Aetolians - very dangerous on home turf and an easy army to collect as it has the fewest figures. Oh and then look at the Bosphorans - very dangerous! Meh. I'll think about it, I guess. Something, something, trying new things and all that  .
Yeah, honestly, for other Greek armies, I'll probably do Spartans. They're an easy sell to the more reluctant people in my regular group and I really like their look. Thessalians I'll pick up as allies for the Thebans and upgrade them to a full army later. But I don't think I'll need more Greeks - other armies just interest me more, I guess. I just need a Hoplite army to match another player in my group (they're getting some Persians, which the Thebans specifically did not fight, but oh well  ). But we'll see.
In other news, I will likely attend a tournament with the Thebans (learning by burning you know). You guys have any pointers? My thoughts so far are: - 8Sp General seems risky because its worth 3 points, correct? 1 Element, 1 Double, 1 General? Seems like a noob trap, but at least I'll have a good excuse for losing, right? I feel like taking a regular Sp General would be wiser, but what's the point of playing Thebans then? And if I keep it supported and protected (maybe screened by Ps and Cv from Kn?) I should be fine, right ?
- for terrain I'll probably take the 2 plow, and maybe some hills? A forest for the Ps? Not really sure what would benefit me here...
By the way, I ordered the Xyston stuff and am now thinking about colour schemes. The images I could find suggest a lot of white overall, with shields being bronze or white. How about other colours? Greens, reds, blues, were those a thing too? And is the weird light blue scheme from Warlord's Sacred Band a thing, because it seems like a stretch to me. I should add, I'm not too strict about historical accuracy - it is much more important to me to have the units look different, have a good overall look, etc. So I'm aiming for a general accuracy, doesn't have to be perfect.
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Post by Les1964 on Apr 7, 2022 9:25:16 GMT
What about the Macedonians?! Paddy649, I like to call the Black Sea Greeks and the Bosporans Hillbilly Greeks 😉. Cheers, They aren't Greeks , SIMPLES .  |
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Post by paulisper on Apr 7, 2022 11:34:30 GMT
What about the Macedonians?! They aren't Greeks , SIMPLES . Oh, yes they are… 😉 P |
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Post by paddy649 on Apr 7, 2022 19:19:00 GMT
They aren't Greeks , SIMPLES . Oh, yes they are… 😉 P Historian NGL Hammond says: "Macedonians considered themselves to be, and were treated by Alexander the Great as being, separate from the Greeks. They were proud to be so." They were a kingdom and not a city state - so not Greek in that sense. But Philip became the hegemon of all Greece - so very Greek in another sense. Plus Alexander conquered most of the known world - which kind of made terms like Greek or Persian irrelevant. I think I’d say that Alexander was the first of the Hellenics. Does that work? |
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Post by paulisper on Apr 7, 2022 20:52:33 GMT
Historian NGL Hammond says: "Macedonians considered themselves to be, and were treated by Alexander the Great as being, separate from the Greeks. They were proud to be so." They were a kingdom and not a city state - so not Greek in that sense. But Philip became the hegemon of all Greece - so very Greek in another sense. Plus Alexander conquered most of the known world - which kind of made terms like Greek or Persian irrelevant. I think I’d say that Alexander was the first of the Hellenics. Does that work? All I’ll say is that a Greek lecturer I worked with for a while was adamant… very adamant… that Alex was a Greek - you didn’t mess with her 😳😱 P |
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 8, 2022 3:12:00 GMT
By the way, I ordered the Xyston stuff and am now thinking about colour schemes. The images I could find suggest a lot of white overall, with shields being bronze or white. How about other colours? Greens, reds, blues, were those a thing too? And is the weird light blue scheme from Warlord's Sacred Band a thing, because it seems like a stretch to me. I should add, I'm not too strict about historical accuracy - it is much more important to me to have the units look different, have a good overall look, etc. So I'm aiming for a general accuracy, doesn't have to be perfect.
Well, the bronze will be bronze and the iron will be iron. Other than that, there is little more hard fact, which seems perfect for your overall effect. The linothorax is usually considered white but may also be off-white or beige, particularly if the theory that it was stiffened with ceramic is true and it had seen some years. It would have been decorated and perhaps reinforced with metal at weak spots. The pteruges hanging down may have been from the same material or from leather and also decorated. Researching Persians recently showed me that available dyes were red, yellow, crimson, purple, sand, beige, brown, black and blue. Of course different shades of these colours would be present. It was interesting and surprising to read that green was quite difficult at this time. Horsehair crests are usually considered as single or combination colours of red, black and white (again beige or simply bleached would be present). Shields could be intricate with whatever background colour as either the bronze could be painted or may only have been around the rim. Centrally distributed shields would likely have been plainer than personal shields. All this of course is conjecture. This youtube link discussing the absence of a word for blue in ancient greek was fascinating and raises the possibility that blue was indeed present but simply not called blue as we would. Blue in Ancient Greece
So you're pretty free with your palette and can have some fun and inspiration as you paint. Enjoy! Cheers Jim |
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Post by martin on Apr 8, 2022 8:03:30 GMT
Historian NGL Hammond says: "Macedonians considered themselves to be, and were treated by Alexander the Great as being, separate from the Greeks. They were proud to be so." They were a kingdom and not a city state - so not Greek in that sense. But Philip became the hegemon of all Greece - so very Greek in another sense. Plus Alexander conquered most of the known world - which kind of made terms like Greek or Persian irrelevant. I think I’d say that Alexander was the first of the Hellenics. Does that work? All I’ll say is that a Greek lecturer I worked with for a while was adamant… very adamant… that Alex was a Greek - you didn’t mess with her 😳😱 P The modern Greeks got very upset by the naming of the ex-Yugoslav state of ‘Macedonia’, as in FYROM. I distinctly recall posters in the ‘old’ Athens airport around 1992-3 stating ‘Macedonia is and always has been Greek’. Not convinced that the Hellenes of the southern part of the Greek areas in his day were inclined to agree (see Paddy’s post). |
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Post by Baldie on Apr 8, 2022 9:29:31 GMT
Historian NGL Hammond says: "Macedonians considered themselves to be, and were treated by Alexander the Great as being, separate from the Greeks. They were proud to be so." They were a kingdom and not a city state - so not Greek in that sense. But Philip became the hegemon of all Greece - so very Greek in another sense. Plus Alexander conquered most of the known world - which kind of made terms like Greek or Persian irrelevant. I think I’d say that Alexander was the first of the Hellenics. Does that work? All I’ll say is that a Greek lecturer I worked with for a while was adamant… very adamant… that Alex was a Greek - you didn’t mess with her 😳😱 P Alex was a girl, this explains how the impossible was made to happen. Geat info. |
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Post by stevie on Apr 8, 2022 13:45:45 GMT
An interesting discussion...were the Macedonians ‘Greeks’? Leaving aside all the modern political considerations, and the fact that the later Macedonian language since the fall of Rome has incorporated heavy Slavic influences, here are some thoughts. (See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language for more details) One thing is certain: whatever the Macedonian origins, Alex’s dad Philip II began to adopt and fully embrace more and more Greek culture, including the language, so that by the time of Alex’s death in 323 BC the Macedonians essentially became Greeks. My own take is to use a modern analogy to help me understand things, and compare the relationship as being similar to that between the English and the Scots. This is quite apt. In both cases the southerners (be they ancient Greeks or the modern English) tend to see their northern cousins (be they Macedonians or the modern Scots) as being a bit uncouth. Likewise, the northerners (be they Macedonians or the modern Scots) are fiercely proud of their independence and heritage and tend to look at their southern cousins (be they ancient Greeks or the modern English) as being a bit soft, but have nonetheless adopted much of the southern culture, including the language. So calling an ancient Macedonian ‘ a Greek’ is much like calling a modern Scot ‘ English’. (And doing so will often end in a ‘Glasgow kiss’...”get that stitched you Sassenach!”) (Oh well done Stevie...in trying to settle a dispute between two ancient peoples you’ve
gone and started a dispute between two modern peoples!)
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). But we'll see.
