Doing Tolkien

medievalthomas
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Doing Tolkien Feb 7, 2022 20:05:22 GMT jim1973 likes this

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Post by medievalthomas on Feb 7, 2022 20:05:22 GMT

Roland mentioned wanting to do Tolkien's Middle Earth using D3H2.

While it will work since its based on old HOTT its abiality to do specific fantasy settings is limited. But here are some optional rules to add some Tolkien flavor:

Orcs in Battle Frenzy:
Like all bullies Orcs pounce on weakness but can't take a counter punch, so on a winning Close Combat they add +1 but on a losing Close Combat they subtract -1.

Goblins/Orcs work as Hordes but Urk-hai should be Blades.

Ring Wraiths:
Can be mounted as a single figure on any Element or as a Flyer on Fell Beast. They cause Fear (on Equals, opponents Recoil, on More opponents Flee).

Heroes:
You can use conventional HOTT Heroes but this is pretty boring and doesn't really catch the Tolkien flavor. So try this:

Cunning Hero: can be mounted on any Element base and allows Heroic Intervention. Heroic Intervention: after Close Combat die are rolled a Hero my declare an Heroic Intervention re-rolling their Element's Combat die and adding +1 to the result (+2 if a General). The second result stands. If unfavorable (the Hero's Element is Recoiled or Destroyed), the Hero is killed in some Heroic fashion and lost for the game even if the Element survives. Such Heroes cost 3 points. (Works really well for Aragorn, Gandalf and the Lord of the Ring Wraiths).

Paladin Hero: such Heroes always add +1 to all Combats. But it their Element gets an unfavorable result they MUST do an Heroic Intervention and regardless of result (even success) they are killed in some appropriately self sacrificing manner. Works well for Boromir.

Trolls: count as +3 v. all opponents and move 3BW but gain Stomp. If they score More than Heavy Foot (Pike, Spear, Blades) or Knights they Destroy them. Clumsy.

Wolf Riders:
+3 v all move 3BW. Have Shock (Destroy on More) v. all Medium/Light Foot (Bow, Shooters, Aux, Warband, Ps etc.) even in Rough/Difficult. Wolf packs have the same characteristics, count as Fast but are Clumsy if not ridden by Goblins.

Elves/Dwarves roll d8's for all Combats. Wood Elves are Fast. Cost 1.5X normal points.

This should put you squarely into the old professor's world.

Thomas J. Thomas
Fame & Glory Games

hobgoblin
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Posts: 23

Doing Tolkien Feb 8, 2022 23:37:30 GMT jim1973, kaiphranos, and 1 more like this

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Post by hobgoblin on Feb 8, 2022 23:37:30 GMT

Interesting stuff!

Oddly enough, I recently started a Tolkien/HOTT thread here (no painting as yet, but some kitbashes and ideas).

One point where I'd disagree with you is on Uruks. I think they should be hordes, not blades. Why? Well, first of all, the great bulk of the armies of Isengard and Mordor seem to be made up of Uruks, not smaller Orcs, who don't really seem to do much fighting in the War of the Ring (aside from raids from the Misty Mountains and Moria). The Appendices of The Lord of the Rings reveal that Sauron has been issuing armies of Uruks for 500 years before the events of the book, and a straight read-through suggests that Saruman's Orcs are pretty much all Uruks (barring the half-orcs, of which more below).

Saruman's Uruks seem to be a modest improvement on the Mordor breed, but not so much that it would make a difference in HOTT terms. As an example, it's not clear in 'The Uruk-hai' whether the Isengarders pull ahead of the soldiers of Mordor because they are hardier or because Grishnakh has a sneaky plan up his sleeve. And both the Isengarders and the Mordor-Orcs are bigger than the Northerners from the Mines.

Of course, there are some smaller Orcs in Mordor - such as the tracker and the Durthang line that Sam and Frodo encounter while crossing from Cirith Ungol to Orodruin, but they don't seem to be the mainstay of the armies or frontline fighters. The Mordor tracker complains to his Uruk companion that "you fighters" have been making a mess of the war, and the Hobbit-sized Orcs of the Durthang line seem to be part of a bringing up of Mordor's reserves to destroy the remaining forces of the West.

Remember, too, that the Uruks are small. They're probably about dwarf-height; Gimli is quite happy fighting them at Helm's Deep but stays out of the way of the "over-large" Dunlendings. Even a "huge" Uruk chieftain is "almost man-high", which suggests that most of the "Black Uruks of Mordor" are smaller. And Gollum, who is well acquainted with the Uruks of Mordor, tells us that the Haradrim are "almost as bad as Orcs and much bigger". The smaller Orcs must be around Hobbit-size, otherwise Sam and Frodo's disguise wouldn't have worked so well.

Also, when the Isengard Uruk-hai are first described in the book, they are "goblin-soldiers of greater stature" [than the Northerners from Moria]. But it's not their size that surprises Aragorn, who, after all, has been fighting Uruks of Mordor all his life; it's their equipment.

What does surprise both Aragorn and the Uruk-familiar Merry and Pippin in Isengard are the half-orcs: "Men ... horrible .. man-high but with goblin-faces". They remind the Hobbits not of Ugluk & co., but of Bill Ferny's friend in Bree. We meet some of these half-orcs later on in the Shire, but they were also at Helm's Deep, and they feature in 'The Battle of the Fords of the Isen' in Unfinished Tales. Here, they're described as "ferocious, mail-clad, armed with axes". And they're thrown in to break the Rohirric shieldwall after Orcs have failed because of their shorter stature. These "Orc-men" are much better candidates for HOTT blades, I think.

I would assume that (virtually) all the Orcs fighting at the Isen, Helm's Deep and the Pelennor are Uruks; if they're not, what has Sauron been doing in the half-millennium since he bred his first armies of them and sacked Osgiliath? And if you follow that assumption, there's no need to distinguish Uruks from smaller Orcs, as they don't feature significantly on the battlefield and, in any case, probably fight in a similar way to the Uruks, only with even greater numbers per element but less individual efficacy. I'd just class them as hordes too.

Where I would distinguish between smaller and larger Orcs is at the Battle of the Five Armies, in line with the Orc list in the HOTT rulebook. As that battle is smaller scale and more 'zoomed in', I think it's fair enough to treat Bolg's bodyguard (no doubt Uruks) as warband and the lesser Orcs of the mountains as hordes. But for the big, 'zoomed out' LotR battles, I reckon hordes cover all Orcs.

I really like the Battle Frenzy rule! I think that reflects the fierceness of the Uruk-hai quite nicely, along with their ill discipline (Ugluk has to dash about to stop them wasting their arrows, and he evidently thinks that they're prone to disobeying orders when he's not about).

In pure HOTT, I'd treat trolls as warband; the ones at the Morannon move fast and ignore rough ground. But your more granular take on them looks great! I'd argue, again, though, that if trolls are +3 against infantry, there's no way the Uruk-hai should be +5! The Men of Gondor (Beregond et al) are in much more trouble when facing trolls than when facing Orcs.

I must try the D8 rule. It seems particularly appropriate for Middle-earth, where there are lots of mighty Men, but Elves are mightier still. Not sure if it should apply to Dwarves, though: I reckon they'd do just fine as blades.

Your hero rules look fantastic! I'm planning to field Eowyn and Merry as a sneaker element mixed in with Rohirric knights.

One point about wolf riders: Tolkien describes them (in 'The Battle of the Fords of the Isen', I think) as "feared by horses". Might there be some way of allowing them to discomfit knights?

jim1973
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Posts: 1,043

Doing Tolkien Feb 9, 2022 7:45:37 GMT

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Post by jim1973 on Feb 9, 2022 7:45:37 GMT

Definitely on the list for HOTT/D3H2. I have lots of 10mm figures from GW and Copplestone.
These two posts are fabulous for those of us interested. You can play as the book or as the films. Both are likely to be great fun! I think I still have Luke Ueda-Sarson's HOTT army lists somewhere...

Cheers

Jim

medievalthomas
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Doing Tolkien Feb 10, 2022 23:29:57 GMT

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Post by medievalthomas on Feb 10, 2022 23:29:57 GMT

Good feedback.

I think in the battle where the Rohirrm overtake the Orc/Uruk band holding Merry & Pippin its specifically mentioned that all fall apart except a band of Uruks that form wedge and almost drive through.

It seems clear they were bigger and more formidable than standard Orcs and certainly Goblins. I also envisioned this category as covering half-orcs.

So I cling to Horde Goblins, better Orcs Warband and Uruks Blades. All with Battle Frenzy of they do collapse when things go bad.

As to Wolf Riders: as Beasts they would be Shocked by Knights so have the opposite of desired effect. So we could create Ridden Beasts: +3, MA3, Lethal v. Knights (Lethal is a useful mechanic it gives you a +1 when you win). Alternatively if you feel the wolves would be most dangerous in close sustained combat you could give them Cry Havoc v. Knights (Destroy on Equals).

Yes re Heroes I think in a Tolkien world having them attach to a base type and give a bonus works a lot better and creates a more exiting dynamic.

TomT

hobgoblin
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Doing Tolkien Feb 11, 2022 15:04:13 GMT afterburner and Brian Ború like this

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Post by hobgoblin on Feb 11, 2022 15:04:13 GMT

So I cling to Horde Goblins, better Orcs Warband and Uruks Blades.

I'm going to try my level best to pry your fingers away!

In Tolkien's work, "goblin" is just a "translation" of "Orc" (as JRRT said in the intro to The Hobbit) - the terms are synonymous. So the Uruk-hai are "goblins" just as much as the smallest Orc - indeed, the Uruk-hai are first described as "goblin-soldiers of greater stature", and a severed Uruk-hai head - presumably Ugluk's - is "a great goblin head". The Orc/goblin distinction is a D&D thing (and later a Warhammer thing), not a Tolkien thing.

I think part of the misconception comes from the start of 'The Uruk-hai' chapter when the Northerners are described as "many smaller goblins" standing around Ugluk and Grishnakh. But earlier and later in the text, both Ugluk's soldiers (and most likely his own severed head) and Grishnakh are described as "goblins". So the "smaller goblins" is just to contrast with the two bigger goblins who are leading the debate about what to do with the prisoners.

Fun fact: when George MacDonald Fraser (author of the Flashman books) was working at the Scotsman newspaper, there was a debate among journalists as to whether Orcs and goblins were the same thing in LotR. They wrote to Tolkien, who confirmed that they were!

And in LotR, "goblin" is used to describe Uruks more than it's used to describe the smaller kinds of Orc! In The Hobbit, it's used to describe Orcs both big and small - Azog, for example, who is clearly an Uruk by the timeline and events revealed in the Appendices of LotR (Sauron breeding the Uruks and then populating the Misty Mountains with his creatures - hence the "Black Uruks of Mordor" that the Fellowship encounter in Moria).

Now, there are clearly many different breeds of Orcs. But the broad distinction in Tolkien's works isn't between small, medium and large, but between the smaller types ("snaga") and the soldier-orcs of Mordor and Isengard ("Uruks"). Are there differences between the Mordor and Isengard Uruks? Yes, there seem to be - but nothing that would be reflected at the HOTT level; I think you'd need to be getting into RPG-style detail to reflect maybe a point of STR or a hit point here or there. The biggest individual Orc we see in the book is the huge chieftain in Moria (who is certainly one of the "Black Uruks of Mordor" that Aragorn spotted); but a fair guess would be that the Isengarders are slightly bigger on average than the soldiers of Mordor.

During the pursuit of the Orcs by the Riders of Rohan in the book, the Isengarders move to the front and the Mordor-Orcs fall behind, "either because they [the Isengarders] were quicker and hardier, or because of some plan of Grishnakh's". When the Isengarders redouble their speed, so too do Grishnakh's troops. So there may be a physical difference between the two, but it's not that significant; they'd both be "fast" in DBA terms. And, certainly, both the Isengarders and the Mordor-Orcs are the superiors in physique and training to most of the Northerners.

I think in the battle where the Rohirrm overtake the Orc/Uruk band holding Merry & Pippin its specifically mentioned that all fall apart except a band of Uruks that form wedge and almost drive through.

By that stage, the smaller contingent of Mordor-Orcs has lost its officer (Grishnakh, who had run off with the two Hobbits). There were only about 40 Mordor-Orcs to begin with (against at least twice as many Isengarders), and many would have been shot down. So it's unsurprising that they don't exhibit the same discipline at that point - and we see throughout the chapter how much Orcish discipline relies on the efforts of Ugluk and Grishnakh.

But my point here is that we don't often see small Orcs, like most of the Northerners, on the battlefields of the War of the Ring. That's why I'd distinguish between hordes (smaller Orcs) and warbands (Uruks) at the Battle of the Five Armies, but not at the Pelennor or Helm's Deep - there's just nothing to suggest that smaller Orcs were there in any numbers. The text clearly indicates that the main Orcish fighters of Mordor and Isengard were Uruks, though doubtless they had smaller scouts and trackers.

Also, it's worth pointing out that Tolkien almost always describes Uruks simply as "Orcs". They refer to themselves as the "Uruk-hai" or "Uruks". But the narrative voice just calls them "Orcs" (with, I think, three exceptions over the whole book - once when Pippin recalls "the clutches of the Uruk-hai" and twice when the small Orcs that Frodo and Sam join in Mordor are being driven on by, and then run into, "fierce uruks" and "heavily armed uruks". And that only comes after the Hobbits have heard the Orcs use the terms Uruks and snaga.

It seems clear they were bigger and more formidable than standard Orcs and certainly Goblins. I also envisioned this category as covering half-orcs.

See above for Orcs and goblins. Half-orcs, though, are plainly much bigger than Orcs. Merry, Pippin and Aragorn aren't reminded of Ugluk and co. when they discuss them, but of Bill Ferny's friend. And look at the contrast in the text: "Man-high but with goblin-faces". Ugluk had a goblin face on his "great goblin head", but he clearly wasn't man-high - otherwise, the half-orcs wouldn't be so remarkable. Also, the half-orc leader during the Scouring is "like a huge Orc". Cross-reference that with Gollum's description of the Haradrim being "much bigger" than Orcs, and Gimli's complaint about the "over-large" Dunlendings, and it's pretty clear that even the big Orcs were generally much smaller than Men. I'd say Dwarf-size for Uruks and Hobbi-size for the snaga types is the best guess based on the text.

And - crucially for wargaming purposes - half-orcs have a different battlefield role to Orcs. They're sent in at the Isen when the Orcs struggle with the shieldwall because of their size (which echoes Gimli's preference for fighting "the hugest Orcs" over the "over-large" Dunlendings). The axe-armed Orc-men have no such problem. They're surely solid blades against the fast hordes of the Uruk-hai!

Also, when Tolkien talks about "Orcs" at Helm's Deep or the Pelennor, it seems pretty clear that he's talking, by and large, about Uruks. Those, after all, are the well-recognised soldiery of Mordor who have formed whole armies for half a millennium (as in the sack of Osgiliath) and have been sent out from Mordor to reinforce lesser Orcs in the Misty Mountains.

When describing those battles, Tolkien never distinguishes between types of Orc. That strongly suggests that we shouldn't either!

And, quite apart from anything else, there are good game reasons for treating the Uruks as hordes. For a battle like the Pelennor Fields, it's important that there are "countless" Orcs and that the goodies are thoroughly outnumbered. HOTT offers an ideal way of doing this: for each two Orc hordes, you can only have one element for the Free Peoples. If the Uruks are blades, then the numbers won't look right - and if the points are unbalanced, the heroes will have a hard job winning!

In the same vein, I think there's also an argument for using conventional HOTT heroes at the Pelennor. I'd probably make Theoden and Eomer standard heroes, along with Eowyn and Merry as sneakers, to help the Rohirrim be appropriately outnumbered by their Haradrim counterparts. If both lots of cavalry are knights (as they certainly would be in HOTT), then packing the Rohirrim with heroes helps them look the part numerically and pack the appropriate punch in melee.

These are my thoughts for the troop types at the Pelennor:

Mordor
Witch King = aerial hero (general)
Uruks = hordes (fast in D3H2) - the bulk of the army - possibly with a general stand to represent Gothmog (whatever he was) if three commands are used
Easterlings = blades (Men bearded like dwarves and armed with axes)
Variags of Khand = blades (on etymological grounds: Variag = Varangian; maybe solid blades to the Easterlings' fast blades?)
Haradrim infantry = spears
Troll-men of Far Harad = warband
Haradrim cavalry = knights (with knight general)
Mumakil = behemoth
Trolls should be warband (with just a couple of figures per base), but it's not clear if they fought other than to wield Grond against the gates.

Free Peoples
Gandalf = magician (general)
Theoden = hero
Eomer = hero (general)
Aragorn = hero (general if three commands are used)
Eowyn and Merry = sneaker
Imrahil = hero
Rohirrim = knights
Swan knights of Dol Amroth = knights
Soldiers of Gondor = blades or spears and bows
Grey Company = blades or possibly shooters (did Dunedain rangers carry bows?)
Folk of Lebennin and Lamedon: spears or auxilia or warband ("grim hillmen").
Men of Lossarnach = blades (axe-armed - possibly fast to distinguish from other infantry?)

For numerical purposes, Eowyn and Merry might have to become another hero stand!

Phew! Have a great weekend, all!

hobgoblin Munifex Posts: 23	Doing Tolkien Feb 11, 2022 15:20:21 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by hobgoblin on Feb 11, 2022 15:20:21 GMT Oh - and one more thing I meant to add: wargamers like to talk about "Orcs and Uruk-hai". But Tolkien never does; instead, he generally refers to the Uruk-hai simply as "Orcs".

kaiphranos Evocati Posts: 216	Doing Tolkien Feb 11, 2022 15:57:12 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by kaiphranos on Feb 11, 2022 15:57:12 GMT Aren't the Grey Company mounted? Perhaps they should be Riders/Cavalry (though few in number.)

hobgoblin
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Posts: 23

Doing Tolkien Feb 11, 2022 16:07:28 GMT

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Post by hobgoblin on Feb 11, 2022 16:07:28 GMT

Feb 11, 2022 15:57:12 GMT kaiphranos said:

Aren't the Grey Company mounted? Perhaps they should be Riders/Cavalry (though few in number.)

Good point! They're certainly mounted before they take the Corsair ships, but when they arrive, "men leaped from the ships to the quays of Harlond and pressed north like a storm". That seems to imply that they're on foot - though Aragorn has a horse in the latter stages of the battle.

They do have bows, so shooters is certainly a valid option:

"A little apart the Rangers of the North sat, silent, in an ordered company, armed with spear and bow and sword."

medievalthomas
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Posts: 879

Doing Tolkien Feb 11, 2022 21:44:47 GMT

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Post by medievalthomas on Feb 11, 2022 21:44:47 GMT

First wave of notes: (have read the great work many many times)

The Grey Company is much too small to form a HOTT unit. They are accompanied by the army of south Gondor so might make an interesting add figure to an Element. In a small battle they could be Medium Mounted (+3 MA4, Shock v. Medium/Light Foot), dismount as MF Longbow (+3 v. Foot +4 v. Mounted).

Heroes: have to totally disagree here. I can't imagine a greater miss-classification of Tolkien's characters than HOTT tongue in cheek "Heroes". All of Tolkien's characters would have been surrounded by distinct types of troops, Théoden by Rohriirm Knights, Aragorn and Faraimer by Gondorian troops. None would have wandered around accompanied by a lone harpist as Phil suggests. Hero elements would fill large parts of the battle line when in fact their armies should be outnumbered and near surrounded. As Heroes they don't pursue like knights so don't function as they should when surrounded by troops. Tolkien is careful to not portray his characters as Beowulf or Lancelot slaying dozens of foes single handedly. They rally and inspire troops, lead armies and intervene only at the critical moment and often sacrifice themselves to do so. Using HOTT rules you will obviously form all your Hero Elements into a single Group and use the standard 3 Hero Panzer Division HOTT formation. JR rolls over in his grave.

If you wish to stick to straight HOTT I would defiantly classify most as Knight/Gen. What to do with Eowyn. She definitely does an Heroic Intervention but prior to that is just a trooper in a large Rohirrm unit - Tolkien liked to stick to realistic military concepts (as as serving officer) and this really influences his battle descriptions. In no sense should she take up 10% of a battle line on her own.

"This is no rabble of mindless Orcs. These are the Uruk-hai, their armor thick and their shields broad..."

—Gimli to Théoden

As to Orcs. Yes totally aware that Goblins, Orcs and Uruks are the same race. I bear the same gene pool as NFL players, Olympic sprinters and NBA players but we are not quite the same. The "fighting Uruks" considered themselves superior to other Orcs and the products of better breeding. I suspect they knew better the distinctions of the various Orc types then did our heroes who tended to lump them together. The smaller goblin types seem to have used more furtive tactics maybe more archery, bigger southern Orcs seem more savage and bully like and Uruks tougher and more disciplined. It is the nature of elite troops that they are often self defining. None of them should be superior to men, elves or dwarfs.

So if I had free hand I would classify Goblins as LF (+2, MA 3, Evade), Orcs as MF (+3 Fast, Blades +1 v. Foot -1 v. Mounted in Close, Orc Frenzy), Uruk as MF (+3, Blades +1/-1, not Fast maybe no Orc Frenzy). Shock to make them like Warband is tempting but I just can't think of an instance where they launched a charge that sweep away Heavy Foot).

Well good excuse for a re-read.

Last Edit: Feb 11, 2022 21:47:27 GMT by medievalthomas

hobgoblin
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Posts: 23

Doing Tolkien Feb 11, 2022 23:10:37 GMT

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Post by hobgoblin on Feb 11, 2022 23:10:37 GMT

Feb 11, 2022 21:44:47 GMT medievalthomas said:

The Grey Company is much too small to form a HOTT unit. They are accompanied by the army of south Gondor so might make an interesting add figure to an Element. In a small battle they could be Medium Mounted (+3 MA4, Shock v. Medium/Light Foot), dismount as MF Longbow (+3 v. Foot +4 v. Mounted).

You're almost certainly right on this. It's the Lebennin and Lamedon folk that come with them, I think, so possibly warband for the "grim hillmen". But any of these options would work well. Perhaps the key is to introduce troop types that aren't already on the battlefield - purely for variety's sake!

Heroes: have to totally disagree here. I can't imagine a greater miss-classification of Tolkien's characters than HOTT tongue in cheek "Heroes". All of Tolkien's characters would have been surrounded by distinct types of troops, Théoden by Rohriirm Knights, Aragorn and Faraimer by Gondorian troops. None would have wandered around accompanied by a lone harpist as Phil suggests. Hero elements would fill large parts of the battle line when in fact their armies should be outnumbered and near surrounded. As Heroes they don't pursue like knights so don't function as they should when surrounded by troops. Tolkien is careful to not portray his characters as Beowulf or Lancelot slaying dozens of foes single handedly. They rally and inspire troops, lead armies and intervene only at the critical moment and often sacrifice themselves to do so. Using HOTT rules you will obviously form all your Hero Elements into a single Group and use the standard 3 Hero Panzer Division HOTT formation. JR rolls over in his grave.

Hmm ... I think the three-hero Panzer division might almost be the best way to reflect the Ride of the Rohirrim. We don't need to worry about the whacky hero/magician interactions because there's no magician on the Mordor side (if we keep the Witch King as an aerial hero). But it would be good to have the Rohirrim able to smash the greater numbers of Haradrim cavalry. If both sets of cavalry are knights, giving the Rohirrim a central core of heroes would engineer the outnumbering (assuming equal points) and the impact in combat.

If I take this course in my Pelennor project, I'm not going to base heroes as individuals (and rest assured that there will be no harpists!), but have them look essentially like knight units: three horsemen per base. That, of course, allows Theoden or Eomer to be played as either knights or heroes, so I can try out both and see how they work. And Eowyn would just be visible as a slighter rider with a passenger among the other riders!But giving the Rohirrim a core of heroes does mean that they're more likely to break the cavalry of Harad than otherwise.

I agree on pursuit being a problem. The simplest solution might just be to house-rule it so that Rohirrim heroes pursue! After all, pursuing blades in D3H2 don't break the game, but improve it!

"This is no rabble of mindless Orcs. These are the Uruk-hai, their armor thick and their shields broad..."

—Gimli to Théoden

Not a line of Tolkien's, of course!

In the book, Gimli makes no such distinction and describes the Uruks simply as "Orcs".

As to Orcs. Yes totally aware that Goblins, Orcs and Uruks are the same race. I bear the same gene pool as NFL players, Olympic sprinters and NBA players but we are not quite the same. The "fighting Uruks" considered themselves superior to other Orcs and the products of better breeding. I suspect they knew better the distinctions of the various Orc types then did our heroes who tended to lump them together. The smaller goblin types seem to have used more furtive tactics maybe more archery, bigger southern Orcs seem more savage and bully like and Uruks tougher and more disciplined. It is the nature of elite troops that they are often self defining. None of them should be superior to men, elves or dwarfs.

So if I had free hand I would classify Goblins as LF (+2, MA 3, Evade), Orcs as MF (+3 Fast, Blades +1 v. Foot -1 v. Mounted in Close, Orc Frenzy), Uruk as MF (+3, Blades +1/-1, not Fast maybe no Orc Frenzy). Shock to make them like Warband is tempting but I just can't think of an instance where they launched a charge that sweep away Heavy Foot).

I think subsequent media have hugely exaggerated the differences between the different Orc types - not least through creating a "goblins, Orcs and Uruks" distinction that simply doesn't exist in Tolkien's Middle-earth (where Uruks are goblins, and goblins are Orcs). There was a White Dwarf article in the 80s that was very influential here - but not based on a close reading of the texts.

The big goblins (like those of Isengard and Mordor) are certainly better soldiers than the smaller types from the North, but it's the big goblins that do most of the fighting in the War of the Ring. I don't think the smaller types use archery more - the Isengard and Mordor Uruks carry and use bows ('The Departure of Boromir', 'The Uruk-hai', 'Helm's Deep', 'The Tower of Cirith Ungol', 'The Land of Shadow'. Indeed, that's one of the things that makes the Uruks hard to map onto any historical troop type: they're fast-moving, undersized heavy infantry who carry bows! Of course, HOTT's horde classification allows for the possibility of missile fire ...

Also, I'd argue that the bigger southern Orcs are Uruks. Grishnakh and his troop are clearly much closer in stature, prowess and training to Ugluk's Isengarders than they are to the Northerners - and their description is very much like that of Shagrat and his crew, who are certainly Uruks. Nor is there anything in the text to suggest the existence of a 'medium' class of Orc. Instead, we get a binary division into small ones and big ones. And again, Sauron has had whole armies of Uruks for 500 years by this point:

"In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black Orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath."

So there's no reason to suspect that his armies aren't principally composed of Uruks. As set out in the indices, Sauron has stiffened the Orc-holds of the Misty Mountains with his superior Orcs in that time (hence, presumably, Azog, Bolg and his bodyguard and the "Black Uruks of Mordor" that the Fellowship encounter in Moria). So he's obviously got plenty to spare.

And Uruks should certainly be fast! That's their main ability, as remarked upon by Aragorn & co. in their pursuit and as set out in Unfinished Tales:

"Behind them came two battalions of the fierce Uruks, heavily armed but trained to move at great speed for many miles." [Emphasis mine]

In pure HOTT, that leaves them stranded between hordes and warband, but in D3H2, fast hordes fit the bill nicely (and it helps that hordes are a bit more effective against other infantry).

The one instance of Uruks sweeping away heavy foot is surely the bodyguard of Bolg against Thorin and co. at the Battle of the Five Armies. I think that's one time where figure scales can be warped a little (or a lot!) to allow a dozen dwarves to form an element of blades!

(As an aside, here's a blog post from a while back on the original of the Battle of the Five Armies in Hrolf Kraki's saga. It has the avenging bear, but also a half-elf necromancer and regenerating hordes!)

One rules suggestion: the Isengard Orcs struggle with the Rohirrim shieldwall because of their smaller stature (hence the need for those half-orc axemen - blades! - to sort things out). Might we build in an additional disadvantage for Orcs (but not half-orcs) when faced with spears or blades with side support - so long as those elements are composed of Men or Elves? Perhaps a -1 in D3H2, which would bump hordes down to HOTT effectiveness?

Well good excuse for a re-read.

It is at least half the fun of these discussions!

Last Edit: Feb 12, 2022 9:18:19 GMT by hobgoblin

afterburner
Munifex

Posts: 7

Doing Tolkien Feb 22, 2022 16:07:02 GMT

Quote

Post by afterburner on Feb 22, 2022 16:07:02 GMT

Lots of awesome info here, definitely giving me lots to think on. I do have some questions about miniatures. I'm putting together the Gondorian forces, and was wondering what others thought about figures. I've been thinking somewhere around Norman to early medieval, but not sure. Any thoughts?

Also, I have been using the Tolkien lists drawn up by Luke Ueda-Sarson back in 2001. They seem to be pretty good, though more play is needed to see if they need any tweaking. My thought is to have three armies on each side; one orc, one orc/easterner, one Haradrim vs men of Minas Tirith (Dol Amroth, allies, citadel guard), Southern Gondor (Aragorn and the troops from the black ships), and of course Rohan.

Kevin

sheffmark
Tribune

Posts: 694

Doing Tolkien Feb 23, 2022 13:32:44 GMT

Quote

Post by sheffmark on Feb 23, 2022 13:32:44 GMT

Feb 22, 2022 16:07:02 GMT afterburner said:

Lots of awesome info here, definitely giving me lots to think on. I do have some questions about miniatures. I'm putting together the Gondorian forces, and was wondering what others thought about figures. I've been thinking somewhere around Norman to early medieval, but not sure. Any thoughts?

Also, I have been using the Tolkien lists drawn up by Luke Ueda-Sarson back in 2001. They seem to be pretty good, though more play is needed to see if they need any tweaking. My thought is to have three armies on each side; one orc, one orc/easterner, one Haradrim vs men of Minas Tirith (Dol Amroth, allies, citadel guard), Southern Gondor (Aragorn and the troops from the black ships), and of course Rohan.

Kevin

I'd also be interested to know what figures people use for

Easterlings
Variags of Khand
Haradrim infantry
Troll-men of Far Harad and
Haradrim cavalry

medievalthomas
Tribune

Posts: 879

Doing Tolkien Feb 24, 2022 22:50:32 GMT

Quote

Post by medievalthomas on Feb 24, 2022 22:50:32 GMT

More "primary" material to be considered re Nazgul:

[Nazgûl]
"Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. But even in the Battle of the Pelennor, the darkness had only just broken. See III 114."
Letter 210, Tolkien Letters, p.272

TomT

afterburner
Munifex

Posts: 7

Doing Tolkien Feb 26, 2022 14:04:39 GMT

Quote

Post by afterburner on Feb 26, 2022 14:04:39 GMT

Feb 24, 2022 22:50:32 GMT medievalthomas said:

More "primary" material to be considered re Nazgul:

[Nazgûl]
"Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. But even in the Battle of the Pelennor, the darkness had only just broken. See III 114."
Letter 210, Tolkien Letters, p.272

TomT

This is what I came up with for the Witch King. Works so far...

Rules for the Witch King

1. The Witch King is considered a Hero unit.

2. The Witch King cannot, himself, kill units. He has a +2 to his combat factors. Any Kill result is modified to a Flee result, and any No Effect result becomes a Recoil.

3. The +2 bonus does not count against Heroes, gods, or Magicians. The Witch King has no additional Combat Bonus beyond his Hero status.

4. Any unit that the Witch King is in side to side contact with gains +1 Combat Factor. See 3 above for the exception to this.

5. The Witch King cannot be killed in combat, nor can any non-hero unit cause him to recoil. The exception is the Hero units, which can only cause him to Recoil (Kills become Recoils).

6. However, somewhere in the Rhohirrim army is Eowyn, a Hero Lurker, the only unit that can kill the Witch King. Unlike other Lurkers, Eowyn is part of the Rohan army, and is hidden not in rough going, but in the Rohan units. Eowyn must stay with Rhohirrim, but is not revealed until a Rohan unit comes in contact with the Witch King (the Eowyn base is not placed on the board until then). When that happens, The Eowyn base is placed in front edge contact with the Witch King’s +2 bonus is negated, and he can be killed by the unit containing Eowyn alone. Eowyn's base contains herself on foot, and a hobbit figure (Merry Brandibuck).

7. As a Flyer, the Witch King could break contact, but this would remove the Combat Bonus he imparts on the units he is in contact with.

8. In the event of the Witch King’s death, any units attached to his side edges automatically break and flee. All other units in the army of Mordor suffer a -1 to all their die rolls except any Haradrim or Easterlings, who act as normal. Also, all units in the army of Mordor require an extra pip for movement, excepting any non-attached Haradrim or Easterling units.

Post by medievalthomas on Feb 7, 2022 20:05:22 GMT

Post by hobgoblin on Feb 8, 2022 23:37:30 GMT

Post by jim1973 on Feb 9, 2022 7:45:37 GMT

Post by medievalthomas on Feb 10, 2022 23:29:57 GMT

Post by hobgoblin on Feb 11, 2022 15:04:13 GMT

Post by hobgoblin on Feb 11, 2022 15:20:21 GMT

Post by kaiphranos on Feb 11, 2022 15:57:12 GMT

Post by hobgoblin on Feb 11, 2022 16:07:28 GMT

Post by medievalthomas on Feb 11, 2022 21:44:47 GMT

Post by hobgoblin on Feb 11, 2022 23:10:37 GMT

Post by afterburner on Feb 22, 2022 16:07:02 GMT

Post by sheffmark on Feb 23, 2022 13:32:44 GMT

Post by medievalthomas on Feb 24, 2022 22:50:32 GMT

Post by afterburner on Feb 26, 2022 14:04:39 GMT