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Post by paulisper on Nov 7, 2021 15:12:13 GMT
A question for the hive mind (posted also on the FB page). If you have a Ps in front of a dbl ranked Pike (ie. a column of 3 elements, in effect) can the Ps recoil or flee through the Pk? We played that it could yesterday at the Tarrington Scramble, but having re-read the rules this morning, I'm not so sure. Figure 20f, with the 3 Bd's in column, implies to me that the Ps would be destroyed in this case, as it could interpenetrate a single Pk, either when recoiling or fleeing, but NOT a double ranked Pk...
Thoughts?
P.
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Post by Les1964 on Nov 7, 2021 15:20:04 GMT
Miss read the question . DOH
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Post by paulisper on Nov 7, 2021 15:36:00 GMT
Page 5 "A double element is 1 element of the armies 12 , but may count as 2 elements when lost ." That's not the question that I'm asking here - I'm focusing on whether a Ps can recoil through 2 Pike elements lined up behind it or not (it could be two of any element that it would be allowed to normally interpenetrate, eg. 2x Bd in column, for instance) P. |
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Post by Simon on Nov 7, 2021 15:44:02 GMT
Page 9 of the rules. Interpenetrating troops.
Says there should be clear space immediately behind the first element met. I'd say they can't.
Cheers
Simon
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Post by paulisper on Nov 7, 2021 16:36:12 GMT
An interesting take by Tony & Lulu on FB:
Tony Aguilar "I would say that if the Ps has to recoil they die because they can't recoil though two elements nor can they push them back but if they have to flee they can flee through both Pk since they can interpenetrate them."
Lulu Spargo "yeah this. In interpenetrating troops, it says recoiled have to move to clear space behind the first element met, which is occupied by the second pike. But for tactical moves and fleeing there just has to be clear space within its movement allowance (and is appropriately lined up of course)."
P.
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Post by sheffmark on Nov 7, 2021 17:56:52 GMT
Agreed. As the Ps turns in place whilst fleeing it can then interpenetrate the Pk and get clear, but recoil and it's dead.
Was it DBM or DBA 2.2 where fleeing troops first had to recoil then turn and flee, (which would mean they die under both cases) or am I dreaming that?
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Post by stevie on Nov 7, 2021 20:17:03 GMT
I agree with Simon and Sheffmark, as it’s what the rules say…
…recoil through the 1st friendly element, flee through multiple friends.
Interestingly, HoTT makes the following very clear in the Passing Through
Troops section (on page 16 of the HoTT 2.1 soft back edition):-
“When an element’s outcome move is insufficient to clear the base
of an element it is passing through, under or over, it is placed in the
first large enough unoccupied space beyond.
When an element’s maximum tactical move is insufficient to clear the
base of an element it is passing through, under or over, it cannot pass.”
I assume the same applies to DBA 3.0, although not stated quite so clearly.
-----------------------------------
Since we are currently talking about recoiling and fleeing through friends,
here is an another issue that has never been fully resolved in DBA 3.0.
Page 9 Interpenetrating Troops says:-
“(penetrating troops must) either (a) start at least partly directly in front
and ends the move lined-up behind or (b) starts lined-up behind and ends
lined-up in front.”
But both Recoiling and Fleeing on page 12 says:-
“Recoiling (and fleeing) troops move in a straight line without turning.”
So the question is this: can recoiling and fleeing troops pass through friends
that are not facing in exactly the same direction, when they must be line-up
after passing through yet can’t turn and can only move in a dead straight line?
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Post by scottrussell on Nov 8, 2021 8:40:35 GMT
I know it is usually an error to try to explain the rules with reference to the historical situation, but...
I have always envisaged voluntary withdrawal through friends as depending on the friends standing in straight lines and the index element having the discipline to pass through those gaps without disordering the stationary unit. I suppose this might apply to less than 10% of armies!
As for outcome moves, the unit originally in front is either pushed back, or flees backwards of its own volition and if its hits the rear unit at an angle it is likely to encounter resistance. Indeed self interest might suggest that they would get no further than the shields of their friends who would be more than happy for them to blunt the impact of the enemy.
So I think it is unrealistic for an element making an outcome move to pass through a friendly unit with whom it is not exactly lined up (and I find even the passing through if exactly lined up eventuality somewhat fanciful).
Scott
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Post by jim1973 on Nov 8, 2021 10:51:20 GMT
"So an element of Psiloi can recoil through a Theban Phalanx 50 shields deep (8Sp) but not through Macedonian pikes 16 shields deep" he says with a sigh, shaking his head.
Another good argument for double base pikes.
Jim
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Post by stevie on Nov 8, 2021 15:49:14 GMT
So I think it is unrealistic for an element making an outcome move to pass through a friendly unit with whom it is not exactly lined up (and I find even the passing through if exactly lined up eventuality somewhat fanciful). Scott I’ll go with that.  👍 So, just to be absolutely clear:- * Troops making a recoiling or fleeing Outcome Move, or those Backing Out of a TZ, cannot deviate, since they are limited to only moving in a dead straight line. And because they cannot deviate from a dead straight line, they cannot end lined-up. Therefore they can only pass through and end lined-up if they started already lined-up. (In the words of Gandalf the Grey…”You shall not pass!”) * However, troops making a Tactical Move that passes from front-to-back of friends, do not need to start already lined-up (see Figure 6a, elements Psiloi-C and Spear-D). But those passing through the back of friends to end up in their front still do. (Note: I assume that Psiloi cannot first move to a lined-up position behind their friends
and then pass through, all in a single bound, as Interpenetration on page 9 says they
must start lined-up behind and end lined-up in front. Does “start” mean the start of
the current bound, or does it mean when they start penetrating?) ---------------------------------- And speaking of interpenetration… …does anyone else find it odd that most foot cannot recoil through friendly foot, yet mounted can (except through Pikes, Hordes and Elephants of course). Good grief…if big mounted horses (and Chariots!) can pass through foot, then why can’t Warbands, Auxiliaries, and other foot types do the same? Just a thought… |
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Post by timurilank on Nov 8, 2021 20:31:07 GMT
Slingshot 42, Asclepiodotus & Polybius, by Richard Nelson references a similar situation of
retiring skirmishers and pike phalanx at the Battle of Sellasia, between Cleomenes of Sparta and Antigonus of Macedon, in 222 BC.
Light troops were recalled by trumpet signals to allow the phalanx to engage the enemy.
The phalanx normal battle interval, according to Asclepiodotus, was 2 cubits (3 ft.);
a space sufficient to allow a counter march between intervals.
Do not overlook the fact that a pikeman’s smaller shield would less likely present a “shield wall” prohibiting the skirmishers from passing through.
In DBA game terms, the second element of pike would counter-march allowing the psiloi to retire to the space vacated.
The following turn, reposition the psiloi and reform the pike column.
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Post by jim1973 on Nov 8, 2021 23:47:39 GMT
Slingshot 42, Asclepiodotus & Polybius, by Richard Nelson references a similar situation of retiring skirmishers and pike phalanx at the B attle of Sellasia, between Cleomenes of Sparta and Antigonus of Macedon, in 222 BC. Light troops were recalled by trumpet signals to allow the phalanx to engage the enemy. The phalanx normal battle interval, according to Asclepiodotus, was 2 cubits (3 ft.); a space sufficient to allow a counter march between intervals. Do not overlook the fact that a pikeman’s smaller shield would less likely present a “shield wall” prohibiting the skirmishers from passing through. In DBA game terms, the second element of pike would counter-march allowing the psiloi to retire to the space vacated. The following turn, reposition the psiloi and reform the pike column. This is where the rules modifiers have unexpected consequences. The supporting element for Pikes or Warband (or LH) is not really a separate battalion from the Napoleonic era. Just more men organized into a bigger unit as per local custom. For Hellenistic Pikes, it would be the standard deployment of 16 deep. Hoplites could be 12 or 16 (or 50) deep. I understand the game mechanism for the rear support rules but a consequence is seen in the interpenetration rules that seems illogical. It would be simpler if the rules stated that these specific troop elements be considered one element for all movement rules. The shortened battleline is enough of a handicap and, as pointed out above, history gives the answer. Cheers Jim |
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