bbs
Munifex
Posts: 8
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Post by bbs on Jul 30, 2021 8:27:51 GMT
Hi. I am brand new on this forum, and French. So excuse my French… I used to play DBA2 (many years ago) and now I am back to the game. So far, I just got the new DBA 3.0 rules (but no in french). I have a few questions for which I might have hints, but I would want absolute certainty. 1) In DBA2, a unit could break off from a close combat ('briser un combat' in french) and a player voluntarily could move back from a close combat exactly as it could from a ZOC (well, I mean I used to play that way). It seems that is no longer possible in DBA3. Is that right ? So two lines of Blades in close combat (with no overlapping in the first place) could enter in a never-ending fight, recoiling/pursuing, always in contact. Or could a player choose in his mouvement phase to withdraw some units to reform his line ? And if so, what distance can the unit recoil ? 2) Some units MUST pursue, like Knights, Pikes or Hordes. That’s clear. But can a player decide to pursue a recoiling enemy unit with other units ? Can a Spear pursue VOLUNTARY any enemy unit ? Or is it forbidden ? Well, it’s not clear to me is deliberate pursue is possible (it can be interesting for any unit to pursue in some situations). In DBA3, some figures leave me wandering : 3) FIGURE 2a : how do we really resolve a sideways mouvement for a single unit ? When a unit meets an enemy ZOC, it can move sideways till 1 BW for free. Does that means that a unit, let’s say a Solide Blade far from enemy, can walk crabwise on its left or right, keeping the direction of its front unchanged ? See my Figure 2a ; is it right ? And I guess that a group can not move crabwise, since a group must go FORWARD and must use a wheeling movement. Right ? ![]()  fbolard.free.fr/Figure_2a.jpg4) FIGURE 2a again : it shows a unit (Spear C) moving forward diagonally and reversing its front edge. But is it allowed for a unit to make a « U-turn », I mean staying put exactly where it is but simply turning its back to the front ? In another words, what is the regular way for a unit to reverse its front ? 5) What happen if one of my unit recoils from a close combat and comes in contact (aligned or not) with the BACK of an enemy unit ? Do they both turn to face each other for a future close combat ? 6) The rules says that a unit may « move directly to its own rear » when caught in an enemy ZOC (threat zone). But what if that unit meets a ZOC from another enemy unit in its rear ? Is the breaking move still possible, or is the unit definitely stuck ? Is my Warband in the figure stuck and doomed ? Cannot it move crabwise to save its skin ? It might be what they would do in real life (« sauve-qui-peut » old saying from the 15e century, 'save yourself if you can') ! See my ZOC.jpg figure. fbolard.free.fr/ZOC.jpg 7) Combat in Bad Going. It is not obvious sometimes to know which unit should be suffering from the -2 combat factor for BG. Example. There is a Ps (Psiloi/Psilète in french) unit on a wood border facing a Knight element (3Kn). Technically, the Knights are standing on Good Going, but attacking INTO a BG. So how do we resolve the fight ? Psiloi are not affected by BG, OK, they do not get the -2 factor whatsoever. But, does the Kn element get -2 for charging into woods ? In this case, it would be quite impossible for Knights to chase away Psilètes in woods. And even more : Knights could be easily destroyed (a 1 or 2 dice roll (Kn) might bring death against a 2-6 (Ps)). Sorry if my questions are naive or simple, but iI prefer to ask and look dumb than remain silent in ignorance. I tried to add attachments drawings, but a message said that "This forum has exceeded its attachment space limit. Your file cannot be uploaded." So I tried to insert links. I hope it's OK. Bruno Bernard SIMON |
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Post by timurilank on Jul 30, 2021 9:28:23 GMT
Hi. I am brand new on this forum, and French. So excuse my French… I used to play DBA2 (many years ago) and now I am back to the game. So far, I just got the new DBA 3.0 rules (but no in french). I have a few questions for which I might have hints, but I would want absolute certainty. 1) In DBA2, a unit could break off from a close combat ('briser un combat' in french) and a player voluntarily could move back from a close combat exactly as it could from a ZOC (well, I mean I used to play that way). It seems that is no longer possible in DBA3. Is that right ? So two lines of Blades in close combat (with no overlapping in the first place) could enter in a never-ending fight, recoiling/pursuing, always in contact. Or could a player choose in his mouvement phase to withdraw some units to reform his line ? And if so, what distance can the unit recoil ? 2) Some units MUST pursue, like Knights, Pikes or Hordes. That’s clear. But can a player decide to pursue a recoiling enemy unit with other units ? Can a Spear pursue VOLUNTARY any enemy unit ? Or is it forbidden ? Well, it’s not clear to me is deliberate pursue is possible (it can be interesting for any unit to pursue in some situations). In DBA3, some figures leave me wandering : 3) FIGURE 2a : how do we really resolve a sideways mouvement for a single unit ? When a unit meets an enemy ZOC, it can move sideways till 1 BW for free. Does that means that a unit, let’s say a Solide Blade far from enemy, can walk crabwise on its left or right, keeping the direction of its front unchanged ? See my Figure 2a ; is it right ? And I guess that a group can not move crabwise, since a group must go FORWARD and must use a wheeling movement. Right ? ![]() fbolard.free.fr/Figure_2a.jpg4) FIGURE 2a again : it shows a unit (Spear C) moving forward diagonally and reversing its front edge. But is it allowed for a unit to make a « U-turn », I mean staying put exactly where it is but simply turning its back to the front ? In another words, what is the regular way for a unit to reverse its front ? 5) What happen if one of my unit recoils from a close combat and comes in contact (aligned or not) with the BACK of an enemy unit ? Do they both turn to face each other for a future close combat ? 6) The rules says that a unit may « move directly to its own rear » when caught in an enemy ZOC (threat zone). But what if that unit meets a ZOC from another enemy unit in its rear ? Is the breaking move still possible, or is the unit definitely stuck ? Is my Warband in the figure stuck and doomed ? Cannot it move crabwise to save its skin ? It might be what they would do in real life (« sauve-qui-peut » old saying from the 15e century, 'save yourself if you can') ! See my ZOC.jpg figure. fbolard.free.fr/ZOC.jpg7) Combat in Bad Going. It is not obvious sometimes to know which unit should be suffering from the -2 combat factor for BG. Example. There is a Ps (Psiloi/Psilète in french) unit on a wood border facing a Knight element (3Kn). Technically, the Knights are standing on Good Going, but attacking INTO a BG. So how do we resolve the fight ? Psiloi are not affected by BG, OK, they do not get the -2 factor whatsoever. But, does the Kn element get -2 for charging into woods ? In this case, it would be quite impossible for Knights to chase away Psilètes in woods. And even more : Knights could be easily destroyed (a 1 or 2 dice roll (Kn) might bring death against a 2-6 (Ps)). Sorry if my questions are naive or simple, but iI prefer to ask and look dumb than remain silent in ignorance. I tried to add attachments drawings, but a message said that "This forum has exceeded its attachment space limit. Your file cannot be uploaded." So I tried to insert links. I hope it's OK. Bruno Bernard SIMON Bruno, Welcome to the forum. Question 1.
Your observation is correct. Breaking off from combat is no longer allowed. Using your example, a second element would be useful assisting the combat by prohibiting further recoil. Question 2.Compulsory pursuit is limited to those listed on page 12, Pursuing: Knights (other than 4Kn), Scythed Chariots, elephants and horde pursuing 1BW and pikes, blades or warband pursue ½ BW unless having fought psiloi. There are players who make use of “House Rules” and Stevie has accumulated a fine list which can be found in that section of the forum. Question 3No element may move further than its prescribed move distance. The ‘sideways’ allotment of 1BW is meant to conform two elements intent on combat. Partial front edge contact is allowed to move ‘sideways’, up to 1BW. Group moves can either be forward or change direction by wheeling. Therefore, no crabwise movement. Question 4To move a single element and have it facing another direction is best done by measuring the corner of the element that must move the furthest distance. This would avoid exceeding the allowable move distance. Will return with answers to your other questions after lunch. |
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Post by menacussecundus on Jul 30, 2021 10:03:30 GMT
Hi Bruno,
Welcome back to DBA (and welcome to v3).
1) Voluntarily breaking off from close combat (front edge to front edge contact) isn't allowed under v3. That doesn't mean that two lines of Blades would end up in a never-ending fight though. In the first combat, one side wins, the other loses and recoils. In the next combat, the Bd beside the recoiled element then has a -1 penalty for being overlapped which means it is a bad time to roll a 1 on the combat dice. If it is overlapped on both sides, the penalty is -2 so the combat factors a re 3v5, making it a really bad time to roll a 1.
2) Pursuit is an outcome move. It happens immediately and is free. However, if, say, a Sp recoils an enemy and wants to follow up, it can do so, but only in the movement phase of its bound AND it has to pay a PIP to move.
3) The free sideways slide of up to 1BW only occurs if an element makes front edge to front edge contact with and enemy element, not when it hits the enemy's Threat Zone (or ZOC). Outside the Threat Zone, sideways moves by single units are allowed, but groups cannot move sideways (unless one of the group contacts an enemy and slides. In that case, the group can slide to maintain contact.)
4) A unit can about face/turn on the spot. It is a voluntary move and costs a PIP (or PIPs). NB In bad going, any element whose move is only 1 BW will have to end up with its front edge in the exactly the same place, just facing the other way.
5) Not necessarily - and probably not at all as the unit which has recoiled will still be in the Threat Zone of whatever caused it to recoil.
6) The Warband in your figure is certainly stuck, but not necessarily doomed. (Wb Quick Kill Sp. So attack and hope you roll high.)
7) Unlikely to happen in practice as the edge of the wood would need to be straight. But if it did, no penalty for the Kn (which fight at 3 v inf) and the Ps fight at 2. NB If the Kn wins, it doesn't pursue into the Bad Going. Note also that there is no way the Kn can destroy the Ps. The best outcome it can achieve is to cause them to flee. And finally, the Kn is destroyed on a 6:1. Is attacking the Ps a good move in the first place?
Menacus S
PS Apologies. There is some overlap with Timurlank's response. I type very slowly.
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Post by timurilank on Jul 30, 2021 13:15:04 GMT
Lunch was grand and thank you Menacus for your answers to Bruno’s query. I would recommend the Fanaticus DBA Wiki to read the Frequently Asked Questions, but I see the last is dated 1st Qtr. 2019. fanaticus-dba.fandom.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_QuarterSearching the topics listed under the section DBA3.0 of the category Rules will also help. |
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bbs
Munifex
Posts: 8
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Post by bbs on Jul 30, 2021 13:38:36 GMT
Thanks guys for you fast & clear answers.
In conclusion :
1) So no more voluntary breaking off from close combat.
- Menacus, you're right. I made a simulation, with 4 blades (housecarles saxons) vs 4 blades (Chevaliers normands à pied). And after 5 turns of undecisive forth and back movements, with many overlaps situation in both sides, one poor roll of 1 saw the destruction of an totally overlapped Saxon blade which disrupted the line. But it takes time.
- Timurilank: you wrote "a second element would be useful assisting the combat by prohibiting further recoil." But a second element behind the recoilling unit is supposed to be pushed back too ? How can it help prohibiting further recoil ? I do not see.
2) Only mentioned units must (not may) pursue. In many other wargames, pursuing is a decision. But I'm fine with that DBA rule.
3) Crabwise moves is OK for single elements. Not for groups.
4) Face turn in one move. OK, this is how I used to do it. Now I am sure. Clear. So a Psilète in Woods can face-turn and still go forward as long as 2 BW. But any unit with only 1 BD move in BG can only face turn and stop. As Timurilank wrote, for any unit with more movement in GG, we have to measure from the furthest corner.
5) Right, recoilling is not attacking, so nobody turns to face the opponent. That makes sense.
6) - Menacus "The Warband in your figure is certainly stuck, but not necessarily doomed."
OK. I said "doomed" because it's what happened in one of my last game. Considering that my Wb was stuck, I attacked with a good hope to send back Ps to home. I rolled a 1, the opponent a 6... I would have loved to escape instead !
7) - Menacus :"Is attacking the Ps a good move in the first place?"
It was my worst mistake as a rookie ! I did worse : I entered the woods with the Kn in my next bound to fix that Psilète threatening my right flank. Do not laugh. It ended as if Hastings had been a saxon victory... Death of Guillaume le Conquérant. How do you fight Psiloi ?
Where are you from guys ?
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Post by timurilank on Jul 30, 2021 15:13:57 GMT
Bruno,
The second element would best support the combat by contacting the enemy flank or rear.
Unless pike or warband, a second element behind one engaged gives no real advantage in DBA3.
Psiloi will require some learning to effectively use them, but they can be deadly if used well.
Group moves over difficult terrain, subsequent moves, effective against elephants,
flee from certain troop types when doubled in combat and can immobilise an enemy advance with a well place threat zone.
I am in the Netherlands, the country with the tricolour flag on its side.
And you are in Normandy?
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Post by stevie on Jul 30, 2021 16:50:55 GMT
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bbs
Munifex
Posts: 8
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Post by bbs on Jul 30, 2021 18:22:31 GMT
Thanks Stevie, I had already downloaded PDF from "Reference_sheets_and_epitomes". I use the very useful Reference Sheet from the Society of Ancient. But a reference sheet means that you have no doubt about rules, which is not my case. I had one PDF FAQ from 2019, but I had not seen the "Frequently Asked Questions 2020" (). I will read that one. I saw the spanish stuff, but I speak.. italian ! English will do.
Timurilank : OK, I got your point. I will study the Psiloi tactics. I see that you recognize the Normand coat of arms. Well, my father was born near Cherbourg, but my mom had a flemish father. So I am belgo-normand ! And I live in Hauts-de-France, in Tourcoing. My heraldry would be : "or a lion sable". A black lion on a golden shield. But I like the golden leopards. We share the same tricolour flag, but in a different position !
Thanks again.
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Post by menacussecundus on Jul 31, 2021 21:25:43 GMT
Bruno,
I live in London, so tricoleur colours for the flag again, but arranged in a funky pattern rather than stripes.
And the way I killed Ps today was to hit it with a Cv to its front and a LH on its side edge in Good Going. (Even then, it survived three rounds of combat before succumbing.)
Regards,
Menacus
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Post by sylams on Aug 1, 2021 21:00:10 GMT
Salut Bruno !
Je suis aussi français et si tu as FB il y a un groupe DBA en français plus ou moins vivant mais si ça te tente n’hésite pas ! Merci
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bbs
Munifex
Posts: 8
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Post by bbs on Aug 3, 2021 17:33:33 GMT
Bruno, I live in London, so tricoleur colours for the flag again, but arranged in a funky pattern rather than stripes. And the way I killed Ps today was to hit it with a Cv to its front and a LH on its side edge in Good Going. (Even then, it survived three rounds of combat before succumbing.) Regards, Menaces Yes, Psiloi can be a pain in the neck. I have to get used to play with them. Well, not so funky a pattern ; the Union Jack is certainly one of the most original and beautiful flags. I quit FB a few years ago. |
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