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Post by bob on May 27, 2021 6:30:39 GMT
Is there a minimum size for a single bad going terrain piece? I could not find reference. Can an aerial be down hill from a ground element (allowed to attack it). A flier was stopped at lowest contour of hill and hero came down hill to attack it. Hero claimed +1.
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Post by sheffmark on May 27, 2021 8:16:42 GMT
Hi Bob
Page 11 - Terrain 4th point says "The battlefield must include at least 4 terrain pieces. At least 2 of these must be bad going terrain of not less than 200p diameter."
So there's a minimum size for at least 2 pieces of bad going, but presumably no size requirements for any others you put down.
Interestingly I don't think there is a maximum size for terrain, except the 1st point says "The majority of the playing surface must be flat good going ......." So theoretically you could have 49% of the table bad going. (Though you'd need some pretty good geometry skills to work that out!!)
On the second point, the last three paragraphs on page 17 talk about when aerials can combat ground troops. I understand this to mean that once aerials are in combat against ground troops they are essentially on the ground, so I would assume normal combat factors applied.
However as Hero's and Paladins can initiate combat against aerials maybe there's an argument that somehow they are fighting the aerials whilst they are still in the air. Although the last paragraph says (essentially) that as soon as aerials engage in contact, (even against other aerials) other ground troops in physical contact can join in, so it seems to assume that this is on the ground.
Overall therefore I'd say yes, uphill would apply.
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Post by sheffmark on May 27, 2021 8:24:10 GMT
Except! Have just seen this:
Page 22 Tactical factors 4th point:
Says you count uphill , but it specifically excludes aerials, so I was wrong, you shouldn't count uphill (or defending a river bank) if either element is aerials.
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Post by martin on May 27, 2021 8:40:01 GMT
Beat me to it, Mark....aerials ignore most terrain except woods/bua.
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Post by stevie on May 27, 2021 10:46:31 GMT
Interestingly I don't think there is a maximum size for terrain, except the 1st point says "The majority of the playing surface must be flat good going ......." So theoretically you could have 49% of the table as bad going. (Though you'd need some pretty good geometry skills to work that out!!) Actually Sheffmark, I have devised a very simple and easy way of doing this. Before the placement of any terrain, divide the table into two halves and make the defender fit all the terrain they wish to use in the right-hand half. If any terrain extends into the left half of the table, then it’s over 50%. Now let the defender place the terrain as they want as normal. This method is a bit crude…but it’s quick and simple. |
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Post by sheffmark on May 27, 2021 14:30:56 GMT
Interestingly I don't think there is a maximum size for terrain, except the 1st point says "The majority of the playing surface must be flat good going ......." So theoretically you could have 49% of the table as bad going. (Though you'd need some pretty good geometry skills to work that out!!) Actually Sheffmark, I have devised a very simple and easy way of doing this. Before the placement of any terrain, divide the table into two halves and make the defender fit all the terrain they wish to use in the right-hand half. If any terrain extends into the left half of the table, then it’s over 50%. Now let the defender place the terrain as they want as normal. This method is a bit crude…but it’s quick and simple. Hi Stevie, not sure I understand, as the rules say you have to have terrain in at least three quarters of the battlefield and there is nothing to say that can't be bad going, so presumably that would have to be a house rule agreed beforehand. My solution, if people want to stack the board with bad going and have bad going troops then just sit outside and wait for them to come out or have a boring draw. As we tell our cats, if you can't play nicely, don't play at all! |
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Post by Baldie on May 27, 2021 16:46:01 GMT
I will happily sit in bad going with bad going troops if the alternate is meeting good going troops in the open.
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Post by stevie on May 27, 2021 17:26:57 GMT
Actually Sheffmark, I have devised a very simple and easy way of doing this. Before the placement of any terrain, divide the table into two halves and make the defender fit all the terrain they wish to use in the right-hand half. If any terrain extends into the left half of the table, then it’s over 50%. Now let the defender place the terrain as they want as normal. This method is a bit crude…but it’s quick and simple. Hi Stevie, not sure I understand, as the rules say you have to have terrain in at least three quarters of the battlefield and there is nothing to say that can't be bad going, so presumably that would have to be a house rule agreed beforehand. Ah…my fault for not making myself completely clear. Page 11 of the HoTT 2.1 rules says:- “(1) The majority of the playing surface must be flat good going…” (i.e. more than half). Soooo, purely for the purposes of determining whether there is too much terrain or not:- (a) Divide the table into two equal halves. (b) Make the defender place all their terrain in one half. (c) If it won’t all fit, then there is too much terrain. (d) Discard terrain features until it all fits in one half of the table. (e) Only if it ALL fits can the defender pick it all up again and then place it as normal. In other words, if the terrain (including gentle good going hills) cannot all fit in one half of the table, then it must cover more than 50% of the table area, which is not allowed. |
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Post by goragrad on May 27, 2021 19:03:11 GMT
Ah…my fault for not making myself completely clear. Page 11 of the HoTT 2.1 rules says:- “(1) The majority of the playing surface must be flat good going…” (i.e. more than half). Soooo, purely for the purposes of determining whether there is too much terrain or not:- (a) Divide the table into two equal halves. (b) Make the defender place all their terrain in one half. (c) If it won’t all fit, then there is too much terrain. (d) Discard terrain features until it all fits in one half of the table. (e) Only if it ALL fits can the defender pick it all up again and then place it as normal. In other words, if the terrain (including gentle good going hills) cannot all fit in one half of the table, then it must cover more than 50% of the table area, which is not allowed. Simple but effective. Will be keeping this in mind for future games. |
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Post by bob on May 27, 2021 20:47:15 GMT
I have been playing HOTT for almost 30 years but almost never aerials so never noticed that tactical factor note on up hill combat. Thanks. The locals just did a 3 day Lord of the Ring campaign with tactical battles done with HOTT. 6-8 players doing 3 games per night with so lots of aerial fights – dragons, gods, airboats, and flyers. More than I have even seen in those previous years of play. Lots of tricky situations ☺
Most games I have done in the past were with preset terrain, or at least limited pieces to deploy. This campaign had pretty much unlimited terrain available so there were all sorts of configurations. Stevie, I like your limiting method and will force this on future play.
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Post by stevie on May 27, 2021 22:31:01 GMT
Actually Bob (and anyone else who is worried about having too much terrain in HoTT),
the final overall effect is pretty similar to that when playing DBA 3.0.
In HoTT the maximum amount of terrain can cover up to 49% of the playing area.
In DBA, when it is played on a conventional 15 x 15 BW sized table, there are 225 BW squares.
As the maximum terrain feature size in DBA is say 4.5 x 4.5 BW, which is 20.25 square BW, and
there can be a max of 5 of these features, the most playing area covered is 101.25 square BW…
…and 101.25 square BW is as near as dammit half of the 225 square BW table area.
(Remembering of course that HoTT doesn’t have the DBA gap between features and a tabled edge,
which doesn’t change the figures above…it just spreads the terrain features out a bit more)
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Post by sheffmark on May 28, 2021 8:35:20 GMT
Hi Stevie, not sure I understand, as the rules say you have to have terrain in at least three quarters of the battlefield and there is nothing to say that can't be bad going, so presumably that would have to be a house rule agreed beforehand. Ah…my fault for not making myself completely clear. Page 11 of the HoTT 2.1 rules says:- “(1) The majority of the playing surface must be flat good going…” (i.e. more than half). Soooo, purely for the purposes of determining whether there is too much terrain or not:- (a) Divide the table into two equal halves. (b) Make the defender place all their terrain in one half. (c) If it won’t all fit, then there is too much terrain. (d) Discard terrain features until it all fits in one half of the table. (e) Only if it ALL fits can the defender pick it all up again and then place it as normal. In other words, if the terrain (including gentle good going hills) cannot all fit in one half of the table, then it must cover more than 50% of the table area, which is not allowed. Ah, I understand now, yes that makes sense. Cheers |
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Post by martin on May 28, 2021 8:57:09 GMT
Actually Bob (and anyone else who is worried about having too much terrain in HoTT), the final overall effect is pretty similar to that when playing DBA 3.0. In HoTT the maximum amount of terrain can cover up to 49% of the playing area. In DBA, when it is played on a conventional 15 x 15 BW sized table, there are 225 BW squares. As the maximum terrain feature size in DBA is say 4.5 x 4.5 BW, which is 20.25 square BW, and there can be a max of 5 of these features, the most playing area covered is 101.25 square BW… …and 101.25 square BW is as near as dammit half of the 225 square BW table area. (Remembering of course that HoTT doesn’t have the DBA gap between features and a tabled edge,
which doesn’t change the figures above…it just spreads the terrain features out a bit more)How does a max depth waterway affect the numbers, stevie? From memory a single item is here about 50 sq BWs(?). |
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Post by stevie on May 28, 2021 11:25:02 GMT
Oooo…number crunching time (which I thoroughly enjoy  ). Assuming all terrain pieces chosen are the maximum size, let’s see now… Arable can have a Waterway, but their maximum compulsory terrain will have to have at least 1 Plough feature, which has 5 chances out of 6 of remaining good going and having no effect. So let’s ignore it. That leaves Arable with (usually) 1 Waterway and 3 Area Terrain features. Littoral must have a Waterway, and can have a max of 3 optional features. Note that this is the same as Arable above (assuming the Plough is good going). Now a Waterway can have half its length 3 BW deep, and half 4 BW deep. 7.5 BW x 3 BW = 22.5 square BW, and 7.5 BW x 4 BW = 30 square BW. Add these two together and we get a maximum area of 52.5 square BW. Since the largest amount of ground covered by an Area Terrain piece is 20.25 square BW (i.e. 4.5 x 4.5), and we can have 3 of these huge beauties, they’ll cover a maximum of 60.75 square BW. Therefore, 52.5 + 60.75 = 113.25 square BW covered out of 225 square BW… …which is pretty close to having half the table covered, just like in HoTT. Of course, all this is just the theoretical maximum possible. In DBA dicing for terrain placement will often cause some features to be discarded. But HoTT too can rarely reach the maximum of 49% of terrain, as 2 pieces must be placed within 600 paces of the table centre (and some may not fit), plus there will be some wastage when curved terrain is checked by first being placed in one half of the table (unless they all have perfectly straight edges). So all-in-all, although it is possible to have half the table covered with some sort of terrain in both DBA and HoTT, this is rarely achievable. |
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