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Post by arnopov on Apr 29, 2021 8:42:48 GMT
Thanks guys for your replies, maybe I should have made the post more widespread and called it "how to deal with lines of Blades" . đ Like with pretty much everything else, 4/5 Elephants will do the trick, and quickly (Tamils). At a pinch, 3Els +2Kns will work too (Classical Indians).
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Post by arnopov on Apr 29, 2021 8:57:06 GMT
Jest aside, something that might have been lost in this discussion is that the effectiveness of these high CF troops vs each other is not that relevant, question of timing.
4Bd will beat 4Sp more often than they will lose, sure, but that will take quite a lot of time, and is unlikely to be the decisive action in a game. Likewise, 3Bd and 4Sp are probably 50/50, but that fight will take forever, and the game is likely to be decided elsewhere.
That's why 3Bd are way way better than 4Sp or 4Bd, their ability to diagonal charge to optimise matchup, or to end up in a clump of Bw.
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Post by timurilank on Apr 29, 2021 9:02:49 GMT
Here, some of the longest games played were between Middle Anglo-Saxon (III/24b) vs. Viking (III/40b).
Needless to say, these do not come out of their boxes very often.
Of the spear heavy Dark Age armies, I would use the Middle Frankish (Neustria or Aquitaine);
6 x levy spearmen, but supported by knights, warband and skirmishers.
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Post by sheffmark on Apr 29, 2021 14:01:21 GMT
Good precise Stevie, but what about when these old enemies square up to each other... mano mano? Worst case scenario is that a Bd finds itself double overlapped and the Sp facing it has side support meaning the factors are 5v3. Of course this will only happen if a Sp draws and the Sp either side of it push their opposing Bd back. (Much more likely if it's Sp v fast Bd) I think the advantage Sp have over Bd is that they are better against mounted. Ok so they can't kill Cav but if you flee them (and with your higher factor you're more likely to do this) then, if it's your next bound, it does you the chance to hard flank an element to either side. If the Cav come back next turn then at worst they're likely to simply force you to turn to face them again (if they can actually get in). Also in a straight fight v Cav there is no chance Sp are going to be killed (on a 4 - 3 you can't be doubled), but Bd have just as much of a chance of being killed as they have of killing the Cav Against Kn you're half as likely to kill the Kn outright in a straight fight but you're less likely to be killed yourself and much more likely to push them back, which starts giving overlaps. However maybe I'm biased having recently fought El and Kn against a line of Sp and had my El Gen bounced and the Kn next in line killed on a 4-2. Also I'm not sure I agree with Stevie that Bd automatically pursuing is an advantage. It can get them into trouble as well. Is having a 3Kn general that pursues into the heart on the enemy an advantage just because it saves on PIPs? Overall though I'd agree Bd are probably better overall. |
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Post by sheffmark on Apr 29, 2021 14:03:21 GMT
At a pinch, 3Els +2Kns will work too (Classical Indians).
Not yesterday it didn't! Ah but is was a line of Sp, not Bd that fought off the Classical Indians. |
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Post by stevie on Apr 29, 2021 17:42:12 GMT
I think the advantage Sp have over Bd is that they are better against mounted. Ok so they can't kill Cav but if you flee them (and with your higher factor you're more likely to do this) then, if it's your next bound, it does give you the chance to hard flank an element to either side. Ah Mark...I have a cure for that.  Have some friends other than Psiloi behind your Cavalry. Their Threat Zones will prevent âhard flankingâ, and Cv can recoil through any but Pk, El, or Hd. (Iâm a great believer in having some reserves)One of the biggest problems for Cavalry fighting Spear is they might flee right off the table. But guess what...I have a cure for that as well.  Have some friends other than Psiloi behind your Cavalry. Fleeing Cv will halt and not pass through them, AND their Threat Zones will prevent âhard flankingâ. (Did I mention that Iâm a great believer in having some reserves?)However, all this is pretty academic. Anyone who simply lines up their Cavalry and charges Spears frontally deserves to lose! The Cavalry special ability is their speed...so use that speed to outmanoeuvre the enemy. Otherwise, youâre asking then to fight with one hand (or foot!) tied behind their back. |
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Post by Haardrada on Apr 29, 2021 23:02:30 GMT
This has me wondering if the likes of Achians and Trojans with dismounting chariot 4Bd (dismounting allowed) supporting their Sp or Eastern Frank's with dismounting Swabians, Early Byzantines with 6Cav and Bd foot or Medieval Germans with their Sp supported by 6Kn could be worthy solutions to match the Blade line?
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Post by timurilank on Apr 30, 2021 5:03:50 GMT
This has me wondering if the likes of Achians and Trojans with dismounting chariot 4Bd (dismounting allowed) supporting their Sp or Eastern Frank's with dismounting Swabians, Early Byzantines with 6Cav and Bd foot or Medieval Germans with their Sp supported by 6Kn could be worthy solutions to match the Blade line? This is exactly what happened at the Battle of Leuven, 891 AD, when the Bavarians dismounted to seal the fate of the Heathen Army on the banks of the River Dyle. |
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Post by sheffmark on May 1, 2021 9:16:24 GMT
I think the advantage Sp have over Bd is that they are better against mounted. Ok so they can't kill Cav but if you flee them (and with your higher factor you're more likely to do this) then, if it's your next bound, it does give you the chance to hard flank an element to either side. Ah Mark...I have a cure for that. Have some friends other than Psiloi behind your Cavalry. Their Threat Zones will prevent âhard flankingâ, and Cv can recoil through any but Pk, El, or Hd. (Iâm a great believer in having some reserves)One of the biggest problems for Cavalry fighting Spear is they might flee right off the table. But guess what...I have a cure for that as well. Have some friends other than Psiloi behind your Cavalry. Fleeing Cv will halt and not pass through them, AND their Threat Zones will prevent âhard flankingâ. (Did I mention that Iâm a great believer in having some reserves?)However, all this is pretty academic. Anyone who simply lines up their Cavalry and charges Spears frontally deserves to lose! The Cavalry special ability is their speed...so use that speed to outmanoeuvre the enemy. Otherwise, youâre asking then to fight with one hand (or foot!) tied behind their back. Interestingly in our game this week we discussed the advantages and disadvantages of having reserves. On the one hand having reserves gives you something to do exactly what you suggest Stevie i.e plug gaps, (though in your plan you have to know which of your cav are going to flee, to position the supports correctly), but then having reserves means that somewhere else your opponent out numbers you, so could be turning the end of your line. I guess in some situations reserves would be best, in others a max extension of the line. It's all part of what makes DBA fun. |
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Post by Haardrada on May 1, 2021 12:58:29 GMT
I think the question of having reserves and their placement depends on the circumstances. Shortening your line is easier if your opponent is using supported Pk or Wb, but not if facing a more mobile enemy.
On a different subject and not that it helps Sp much, Bd don't persue in Bad Going.
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