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Post by Haardrada on Apr 28, 2021 14:28:08 GMT
Sp vs Bd ? which are more effective, especially vs each other.
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Post by stevie on Apr 28, 2021 16:00:07 GMT
This is a tricky one...as everybody has their own preferences. Spear Advantages:-Doesn’t pursue (so getting themselves into double-overlap positions). Higher CF against mounted (but Cv and LH will just flee when doubled). Blade Advantages:-Does pursue most foot (saving PIP’s to maintain contact). Doesn’t need an adjacent Blade or Spear (no need for side-support). Better than Spears in rough or bad going (no side-support to lose). Can give side-support to adjacent solid Bows (Spears can’t). Can quick-kill Knights and Camels (on an equal score). Can destroy Cavalry with a doubled score (instead of them just fleeing). All in all, I’d sooner have a Blade than a Spear.  |
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Post by Haardrada on Apr 28, 2021 17:08:14 GMT
This is a tricky one...as everybody has their own preferences. Spear Advantages:-Doesn’t pursue (so getting themselves into double-overlap positions). Higher CF against mounted (but Cv and LH will just flee when doubled). Blade Advantages:-Does pursue most foot (saving PIP’s to maintain contact). Doesn’t need an adjacent Blade or Spear (no need for side-support). Better than Spears in rough or bad going (no side-support to lose). Can give side-support to adjacent solid Bows (Spears can’t). Can quick-kill Knights and Camels (on an equal score). Can destroy Cavalry with a doubled score (instead of them just fleeing). All in all, I’d sooner have a Blade than a Spear. Good precise Stevie, but what about when these old enemies square up to each other... mano mano or line against line? |
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Post by menacussecundus on Apr 28, 2021 18:37:13 GMT
Good precise Stevie, but what about when these old enemies square up to each other... mano mano? Okay. A line of Sp facing a line of Bd starts out at 5v5. (Sp basic 4 +1 for side support. Bd basic 5.) After a round of combat, recoils and pursuits are probably going to make a mess of those nice straight lines. Worst case scenario is that a Bd finds itself double overlapped and the Sp facing it has side support meaning the factors are 5v3. (Sp basic 4 + 1 for side support. Bd basic 5 - 2 for being double overlapped.) For the Sp, the worst case is that its mates on either side are pushed back and the lone Sp finds itself overlapped on both sides and fighting at 2v5. (Sp basic 4 - 2 for double overlap. Bd basic 5.) If my calculations are correct*, with a 5v3 combat there are six combinations out of a possible 36 where the element starting on 5 will double its opponent, whereas at 2v5, there are ten* out of 36. I think that gives the Bd the edge. * As stevie pointed out below, they weren't; at 2v5, the Bd has a 12 in 36 chance of destroying the Sp. |
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Post by Haardrada on Apr 28, 2021 18:49:25 GMT
Good precise Stevie, but what about when these old enemies square up to each other... mano mano? Okay. A line of Sp facing a line of Bd starts out at 5v5. (Sp basic 4 +1 for side support. Bd basic 5.) After a round of combat, recoils and pursuits are probably going to make a mess of those nice straight lines. Worst case scenario is that a Bd finds itself double overlapped and the Sp facing it has side support meaning the factors are 5v3. (Sp basic 4 + 1 for side support. Bd basic 5 - 2 for being double overlapped.) For the Sp, the worst case is that its mates on either side are pushed back and the lone Sp finds itself overlapped on both sides and fighting at 2v5. (Sp basic 4 - 2 for double overlap. Bd basic 5.) If my calculations are correct, with a 5v3 combat there are six combinations out of a possible 36 where the element starting on 5 will double its opponent, whereas at 2v5, there are ten out of 36. I think that gives the Bd the edge. Thank you menacussecundus for that insight it does show Bd do have a clear edge. Given that are their any combinations of elements that could be intermixed with the Sp to allow them to still make use of the side bonus on one flank and other elements that could redress the balance vs the Bd? |
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Post by menacussecundus on Apr 28, 2021 19:31:47 GMT
Thank you menacussecundus for that insight it does show Bd do have a clear edge. Given that are their any combinations of elements that could be intermixed with the Sp to allow them to still make use of the side bonus on one flank and other elements that could redress the balance vs the Bd? Goodness! That's quite a question Haardrada. Elephants would probably work. They'd start at a 5v3, so there's a decent chance they might be able to double their Bd opponents and break the line. Knights wouldn't be a bad call either (3v3, but with a quick kill if they win). Possibly Wb, if you can get them in 2 ranks. But really I'm guessing here. And there is the additional problem that the Bd player only has to recoil one element to get rid of the Sp's side support bonus. |
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Post by bob on Apr 28, 2021 19:37:53 GMT
If facing an enemy with lots of mounted, I would take the Spear at +4 vs Bd at +3.
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Post by paulisper on Apr 28, 2021 19:48:03 GMT
All in all, I’d sooner have a Blade than a Spear. And I’d sooner have a Fast Bd than a Solid one 😉 P |
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Post by stevie on Apr 28, 2021 21:00:24 GMT
Menacussecundus: I like your number crunching...but I think you’ll find that CF 5 v CF 4-2 has 12 chances out of 36 of being doubled, and that is twice CF 5-2 v CF 4+1, which has 6 chances out of 36 (in other words, a double overlapped Spear has 12 chances of being killed, but a doubled overlapped Blade in the same situation has just 6 chances of dying). Bob: Sp can’t kill Cv, even with an overlap...the Cv just flee when doubled. But Blades on the other hand will kill Cavalry when they double them. I’d sooner kill ‘em than simply chase them off again and again and again. Paulisper: me too...the fast Bd speed (in all terrain) is a definite advantage. Thank you menacussecundus for that insight it does show Bd do have a clear edge. Given that are their any combinations of elements that could be intermixed with the Sp to allow them to still make use of the side bonus on one flank and other elements that could redress the balance vs the Bd? About the only thing I can think of Haardrada is a line of Bd-Sp-Sp-Bd. The Bd gives the Sp side-support, and at least the Sp won’t pursue.
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Post by gonatas on Apr 28, 2021 21:17:47 GMT
All in all, I’d sooner have a Blade than a Spear. And I’d sooner have a Fast Bd than a Solid one 😉 P The impression I have FWIW is that a line of Spear will lose to a line of Solid Blade but will probably beat a line of Fast Blade (because of the recoil on evens). |
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Post by Haardrada on Apr 28, 2021 23:40:15 GMT
And I’d sooner have a Fast Bd than a Solid one 😉 P The impression I have FWIW is that a line of Spear will lose to a line of Solid Blade but will probably beat a line of Fast Blade (because of the recoil on evens). So there is hope for the Sp vs Fast Blade? |
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Post by gonatas on Apr 29, 2021 6:36:49 GMT
The only thing I am sure about in Wargaming is that there is always hope.
What I am wary about is expectation.
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Post by menacussecundus on Apr 29, 2021 7:32:41 GMT
stevie. Yes you are correct. I forgot to include the kills if the Sp rolls a 3.
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Post by Haardrada on Apr 29, 2021 8:27:23 GMT
Thanks guys for your replies, maybe I should have made the post more widespread and called it "how to deal with lines of Blades" . 😁
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Post by martin on Apr 29, 2021 8:29:04 GMT
The impression I have FWIW is that a line of Spear will lose to a line of Solid Blade but will probably beat a line of Fast Blade (because of the recoil on evens). So there is hope for the Sp vs Fast Blade? That’s one of the reasons I don’t think 3Bd are the super-troops some claim...when using Viking ‘a’ list my main cause for concern was that they bounce off solid troops too often for comfort. Yes they generally fought well, but boy do they leave some holes in the line when they don’t....!! |
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