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Post by greedo on Mar 18, 2021 18:13:50 GMT
So we know that DBA is fast, in addition to the close proximity of armies (6 BW) prior to battle. I've heard that some people feel that once the forces have been deployed, there is no way to rearrange easily, and so the battle can be effectively won/lost before it has begun (esp if you're the defender). Have people found this? I haven't, but I've also not played a huge amount of 3.0. But just in case, I had an idea based partly on the 2.2 idea of "swapping 2 pairs of elements" which I always thought was a bit confusing. So: Pre-Battle Shuffling: - Once defender and attacker have deployed:
- Defender can move up to 4 elements up to 4BW in any direction EXCEPT closer to the enemy (i.e. forwards), facing any direction.
- Littoral landings elements do not get to do this.
- Attacker may then move up to 2 elements up to 4 BW EXCEPT closer to the enemy (i.e. forwards), facing in any direction
- Play begins as normal
This would give the defender the chance to shuffle a bit if they realize they have completely cocked up their deployment, but the attacker can also react to this slightly.
A smart player would have a cav "fire brigade" in the rear, and use their shuffle to push them either left or right to react to the attacker's deployment, and then the attacker might also have their own "reaction force"
The numbers of how many could move, and how far, but at least could this be considered useful? Have not play tested yet, but wanted to toss it out for thoughts.
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Post by timurilank on Mar 18, 2021 19:41:55 GMT
Reading this, I am reminded of the Battle of Ilipia (2nd Punic War, Iberia).
After several days of tempting Hasdrubal to fight by deploying for battle, Scipio attacked the Carthaginian camp on the third day with his velites.
Thinking Scipio deployed in the same manner Hasdrubal was surprised to find the legions positioned on the flank and the less experienced allies in centre.
As a house rule, I would prefer a complete redeployment to represent a new day.
Naturally, refusing to engage the enemy but fight the next day should come with some penalties;
such as allies or mercenaries leaving camp during the night to change sides or simply leave.
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Post by hammurabi70 on Mar 18, 2021 20:44:09 GMT
A smart player would have a cav "fire brigade" in the rear, and use their shuffle to push them either left or right to react to the attacker's deployment, and then the attacker might also have their own "reaction force” ould they?
Would they? Is that how most battles developed? I have my doubts because I do not remember reading of lots of battles that ended with the commitment of a cavalry reserve, either to redeem a losing position or to ensure success. Classical Roman armies only had limited cavalry in their armies ands the reserve seems to have been the triarii. If this best for DBA I wonder if we have got the rules right? |
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Post by greedo on Mar 18, 2021 21:01:29 GMT
A smart player would have a cav "fire brigade" in the rear, and use their shuffle to push them either left or right to react to the attacker's deployment, and then the attacker might also have their own "reaction force” ould they?
Would they? Is that how most battles developed? I have my doubts because I do not remember reading of lots of battles that ended with the commitment of a cavalry reserve, either to redeem a losing position or to ensure success. Classical Roman armies only had limited cavalry in their armies ands the reserve seems to have been the triarii. If this best for DBA I wonder if we have got the rules right? Yeah I kind of tossed that in as an imaginary thing, but I'm sure the concept of moving a few units pre-battle to help shore up something is still in keeping with DBA. |
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Post by paulisper on Mar 18, 2021 21:30:13 GMT
Deploy back from the 'tape' - don't be wedded to the fact that you have to set your troops down 3BW from the centre line, and this is something I've done as defender on numerous occasions, in order to buy myself a bound or two extra before impact. This allows more re-deployment and shuffling, if needed...
P.
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Post by greedo on Mar 18, 2021 21:33:07 GMT
Deploy back from the 'tape' - don't be wedded to the fact that you have to set your troops down 3BW from the centre line and this is something I've done as defender on numerous occasions, on order to buy myself a bound or two extra before impact. This allows more re-deployment and shuffling, if needed... P. That is a good point. I hadn't thought of that. I'm always a fully forward kind of guy! If it's not a problem, then no need for extra complexity. |
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Post by timurilank on Mar 18, 2021 21:51:19 GMT
This is especially true for cavalry armies.
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Post by stevie on Mar 19, 2021 8:06:25 GMT
I must confess that I agree entirely with Hammurabi70.
I get the impression that ancient and medieval battles were all about deploying your troops correctly.
Especially as the commanders in those distant times didn’t have our modern communications equipment,
nor our wargamers ability to fly over the battlefield and see all.
Indeed, would the Persians had deployed as they did at Marthon if they could see the Athenian deployment?
Wouldn’t Darius have moved his men about at Gaugamela to counter Alexander the Great’s echelon attack?
Would the Romans had deployed as they did at Cannae if they knew what Hannibal was up to?
And wouldn’t Hannibal have used his elephants to extend his battleline at Zama to counter the Roman horsemen?
Just how do you ‘out-general’ your opponent if everybody can move their stuff around during deployment?
Like Paulisper a trick I sometimes use as a defender is to deploy all my elements in one long line with no reserves.
This usually causes my opponent to do the same out of fear of being outflanked.
Then I shorten my line by forming columns and shifting my weight onto one wing while delaying on the other.
It keeps the buggers from guessing as to what I’m actually up to!
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Post by greedo on Mar 19, 2021 14:52:49 GMT
So the impetus of this was more to assume that both opponents had deployed back and have been moving (and shuffling) while they move towards the 3BW closest distance. That way the game isn’t slowed down by lots of in game shuffling in the first few turns, and we get to combat ASAP. It’s not so much a “redeployment” as it is troops move about as they head towards each other.
However, if people feel it isn’t needed, then we’re good to go.
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