I'm probably going over old ground here but I can't find anything in the FAQ or threads about this.
Given that some elements can interpentrate while recoiling I caught myself checking between the interpenetration rules on Page 9 and the recoil and pushed back rules on Page 12 and noted that Recoils through allowed elements is straight forward with normal elements, but I was confused when recoiling by or through double elements applies.For example by the rules on Page 9,Ps under option (d) can recoil through any other troops other than other Ps. But by the rules on Page 12 foot can only recoil their base depth or 1/2 BW if this is this is less than its base depth, given that the Ps base depth is 20mm and foot double elements are 30-40mm and mounted are 60 mm what applies here? Is it a case that the Ps cannot recoil due to lack of movement allowance or is it allowed if there is sufficient clear space beyond the double element? Likewise can a double element recoil through a permitted element?A foot element seems to be allowed to recoil its own base depth which doesn't seem to be a problem, but a mounted element is only allowed 1BW or its base depth if this is less than 1BW, when a mounted double element has a base depth of 60mm? Am I missing something or does something else apply?
In HoTT 2.1, page 16 section two (Interpenetration) says:- “When an element’s outcome move is insufficient to clear the base of an element it is passing through, under or over, it is placed in the first large enough unoccupied space beyond. When an element’s tactical move is insufficient to clear the base of an element it is passing through, under or over, it cannot pass.”
So troops making a voluntary Tactical Move only have their speed to clear the base. Troops making an involuntary Combat Outcome Move are placed behind the base (which may mean they exceed their normal recoil distance).
My little group applies the same logic to DBA 3.0...with the extra page 9 provision that:- “If making a tactical move or fleeing, a mounted element can pass through friendly Psiloi, or Psiloi pass through any friends, but in both cases only if there is sufficient clear space beyond (see figure 6b) and enough move to occupy it, and either:- (a) it starts partly directly in front and ends the move lined-up behind, (even if it started unaligned or facing a different direction – see figure 6a) (b) or starts lined-up behind and ends lined-up in front. (Troops leaving a TZ or fleeing must move in a straight line, so can’t deviate to line-up?)”
Involuntary Recoiling in DBA 3.0 also has other limitations, as noted in Interpenetration on page 9. Oh, and in DBA 3.0 you can only recoil through one friendly element:- "...to a clear space immediately behind the first element met (see figure 19d)..." making recoiling through a column impossible.
Last Edit: Jan 5, 2021 12:12:09 GMT by stevie: ...I'm making this sound complicated, but it's really quite easy in practise...
Post by chrishumphreys on Mar 15, 2021 20:36:50 GMT
Hi all, what is the consensus on recoiling and interpenetration if there is a gap between the recoiler and the interpenetrated element, does the recoiling element have to be in contact with the element it is interpenetrating? For example suppose a psiloi element is 15mm in front of and lined up with a cavalry element behind, if it recoils can it move to reach the Cv and then interpenetrate (assuming there is space behind to do this) or does it stop at the front edge of the Cv having already used its recoil to move 15mm. Supplementary question, I read it that if the two elements involved in the recoil/interpenetration are not lined up (ie offset) then the recoiler will interpenetrate and move sideways to end the move lined up behind the interpenetrated element, is this the correct interpretation? Thank you in advance for your answers. Chris
I was waiting to see if anyone else would answer your queries Chris... ...but since they haven’t, I’ll have a go. Here is what the rules say about your first question.
Recoil distances on page 12 (see also figure 19a). “A recoiling foot element always moves its own base depth (or ½ BW if this is less than its base depth). A recoiling mounted element can choose either to move 1 BW or to move its own base depth if this is less than 1 BW.”
And Interpenetration on page 9 says:- “If making a tactical move or fleeing, a mounted element can pass through friendly Psiloi, or Psiloi pass through any friends, but in both cases only if there is sufficient clear space beyond (see figure 6b) and enough move to occupy it, and either:- (a) it starts partly directly in front (even if unaligned or facing a different direction – see figure 6a) and ends the move lined-up behind, (b) or starts lined-up behind and ends lined-up in front.”
“Recoilers can pass through friends facing in exactly the same direction (see figure 6b) to a clear space immediately (lined-up) behind the first element met (see figure 19d), but only if they are of the right type (a, b, c and d).”
From the above we see that recoiling elements MUST move their full recoil distance, if they can. If they meet friends they can pass through them (if allowed or if they wish), which means they will exceed their normal recoil distance, OR, they may push them back (again, if allowed). If they cannot pass through or push back, then they have met an obstacle, and will halt. If already in contact with an obstacle, so they cannot move at all, they will be destroyed.
Your second question is a bit more tricky, as it exposes a contradiction in the rules. Page 12 says “Recoiling or pushed back elements move straight back without turning”, and “(A fleeing element) turns 180° then moves straight forward without turning”. However, Interpenetration on page 9 says “they must end up lined-up in front or behind”. So which is it? How can those fleeing and those leaving a TZ line-up if they must move in a straight line?
There are two possibilities:- 1) Troops leaving a TZ and those fleeing must move in a straight line, so they cannot interpenetrate if facing in a different direction, because they cannot deviate from this straight line in order to line-up? ---OR--- 2) Those fleeing can still pass through and line-up, as lining-up is an involuntary outcome of interpenetration?
(Personally, I’d go with option 2, as those fleeing are more concerned with staying alive rather than following the calm disciplined niceties of who is facing in exactly the same direction. Anyway, if fleeing troops cannot deviate to line-up, then some players (like me) could exploit this by having friends facing ever so slightly in a different direction behind the fleeing troops to prevent them from fleeing too far...such as fleeing right off a table base-edge and being lost)
Post by chrishumphreys on Mar 16, 2021 11:21:22 GMT
Thanks Stevie, very clear, so if the recoiling psiloi are 15mm in front of a cavalry element they will recoil 15mm and then interpenetrate to jump out behind the cavalry, quite a wheeze because they would now be 45 mm from the element causing the recoil (which does not pursue Psiloi) and no longer in the TZ. The second part of your answer exposes a weakness in my question in that recoilers don't line up but the twist about fleeing is one I have not considered, I fancy option 2 as fleeing elements would change direction to line up with enemy so if would be consistent to allow them to do so for a friendly interpenetration. A tactical move backwards out of a TZ is a different case and here I would adopt option 1.