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Post by stevie on Dec 29, 2020 16:08:20 GMT
Oh no they ca-hah-hah-hah-haaaan't! (this is all moot since if hordes work in a wargaming context who cares about their historical niceties?) Modern attempts to recreate in-formation line relief all forget that when you have lethal weapons and your opponents also have lethal weapons and fully intend to kill you, everything changes. You cannot be distracted for an instant and you need to maintain your full fighting capability.........and a tired man is not going to fight as well as the fresh man waiting behind him.  Being a bit of a lazy bugger myself, I refuse to believe that those in the front rank fought continuously for a couple of hours or more while those behind them merely stood around chatting about their next holiday. And the fact that the ancient scholars don’t seem to mention line relief is probably because it’s blatantly obvious...tired men don’t fight as well as fresh men, and fighting makes men tired. I strongly believe that those ancient warriors, who had to live, fight, and die in those ancient battles, knew what they were doing, and they knew far more about ancient warfare than we do today...even if our modern minds cannot conceive of how exactly they did it. Even untrained undisciplined disordered barbarian warriors would know when their right arm was becoming tired, so would have the sense to step back for a bit of a rest to get their breath back...especially when they see their opponent doing the same thing and they now have to face a new fresh and rested fighter. It’s only when you step back and find none of your rearward mates are willing to step forwards to take your place does the entire formation begin to recoil and start to waver. But I do agree with you about the casualty ratio. Strange as it may seem (and unlike what is portrayed in Hollywood films), most of the soldiers in an ancient battle never killed or even wounded ANY of the enemy! How could they? If every man in an 40,000 strong army achieved just a single kill, then every single man in the opposing 40,000 strong army would be dead! I bet that around the campfires later that evening very few of the victorious soldiers could boast about actually achieving a kill (other than during a pursuit, when the fleeing enemy was unable to fight back). |
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Post by chaotic on Dec 29, 2020 19:05:58 GMT
On hordes again. I think the reasoning behind their lack of recoil might have something to do with the absence of a structured formation and their much greater numbers when compared to most other DBA elements. The combination of these two attributes suggest to me that their mobs are more likely to compress and deform, rather than recoil in an orderly manner. We see this with mobs of demonstrators and rioters today. They tend to ebb and flow, some running forwards while others run away - acting almost like a sponge. Their front edge might withdraw from an assault, but overall, the crowd tends to stay in place until broken up and their members flee.
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Post by somecallmetim on Jan 9, 2021 23:21:26 GMT
Yawn. As appears normal “Stevie” takes one example and applies it generically.
Well trained troops like legionnaires or medieval household troops could disengage from fighting and cycle back through the ranks to have a rest. A frightened villager or a rioting peasant would not have a clue.
I’ll stop before the conversations gets onto hordes in rivers.
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Post by stevie on Jan 10, 2021 14:13:06 GMT
Well trained troops like legionnaires or medieval household troops could disengage from fighting and cycle back through the ranks to have a rest. It’s good to see that you agree with me.  And apparently frightened villagers and rioting peasants are made of sterner stuff than seasoned warriors and trained regulars, as they won’t recoil like them, but valiantly hold their ground...even when they see their front rank being cut down or being pushed back and the sounds of battle (and potential death) getting nearer. (I wonder why ancient generals didn’t give their hordes proper weapons and the training
to use them? Then they’d have a body of men that don’t recoil AND would fight well.
Odd that)Anyway, all this is ‘angels dancing on the head of a pin’. In DBA Hordes don’t usually recoil, but other troops do. Choose whatever justification you like, the effects on our wargames table will be the same. As for your casual “I’ll stop before the conversation gets into hordes in rivers”, but you made this comment anyway in order to make some sort of point, well I’m sorry: you’ll just have to use better bait. 🎣 |
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Post by chaotic on Jan 10, 2021 20:04:45 GMT
I’ll stop before the conversations gets onto hordes in rivers. Everyone knows that hordes don't cross rivers ... the great unwashed never bathe! |
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Post by snowcat on Jan 11, 2021 0:57:20 GMT
You have to love Horde.
The Mu-jung Hsien-pi can have 4 elements of dust-throwing women with banners mounted on oxen.
Beat that.
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Post by sheffmark on Jan 12, 2021 13:51:02 GMT
Yes but who does those figures?
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Post by snowcat on Jan 12, 2021 22:33:15 GMT
No-one, apart from the oxen and maybe the banners (which you could make yourself).
The women would need a lot of 'dust'. Do they have buckets full of 'dust' on board the oxen? Do they hold the banners or are these strapped to the oxen too? I suspect the latter.
Questions for a figure converter perhaps...
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Post by sheffmark on Jan 13, 2021 12:03:23 GMT
I've simulated smoke and flames with painted cotton wool before. Maybe could do something similar to recreate dust?
Banners, yes could make those and the oxen are no problem but women riding them?
Shame because I liked the idea of these, particularly as you deploy them as Kn or Cv and only change them to Hd in the second bound.
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Post by stevie on Jan 13, 2021 16:02:43 GMT
Since I’ve swapped from fags to e-cigarettes, I have no problem creating smoke. (cough, cough) |
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Post by paulhannah on Jan 13, 2021 18:08:53 GMT
I've simulated smoke and flames with painted cotton wool before. Maybe could do something similar to recreate dust? Banners, yes could make those and the oxen are no problem but women riding them? Shame because I liked the idea of these, particularly as you deploy them as Kn or Cv and only change them to Hd in the second bound. Ergo, you don't need to create the elements of "dust-throwing women with banners mounted on oxen". Simply use Kn or Cv and then exchange them for Hordes. Or not. THAT is the real appeal of this gimmick: Your opponent doesn't know for sure what he or she is facing at the outset. You could simply stick with 4 x 6Cv elements. When I resume work on this project, I plan to have a Camp scene with oxen, womenfolk, banners and their now empty sacks. --The tricksters have retired back to the army's camp. |
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Post by snowcat on Jan 14, 2021 7:03:46 GMT
So says Paul 'Horde Master' Hannah!  |
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Post by medievalthomas on Feb 18, 2021 18:06:53 GMT
I've come to doubt the wisdom of the Hordes don't Recoil rule. It has lots of "rule" exception problems and doesn't really reflect masses of undisciplined Foot. The Recoil system was put in to cause Disorder (ie your line breaking up and getting hard to control). The no Recoil rule has the opposite effect - Hordes remain very well organized. So not only is the exception not worth the extra rule hassle (what do you do with Fast Hordes for instance), it doesn't really produce the correct historical result.
For at home games just use Heavy Hordes (+4/+4, Pursue All, Clumsy) and Medium Hordes (+3/+3, Pursue All, Clumsy). Heavies represent crap spear, Medium peasant masses. Recoils reflect to some extent you chewing into their mass. Knights, Warbands and El get Shock.
TomT
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