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Post by richard4th on Dec 15, 2020 8:35:13 GMT
Hi all
Can anyone confirm, or perhaps deny, that the only time LH are allowed to move into combat on a 2nd or 3rd move is when they use a road?
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Post by stevie on Dec 15, 2020 13:26:00 GMT
Yep Richard4th, that does appear to be the case so you are correct. Page 9, second section from the top:-
SECOND OR SUBSEQUENT TACTICAL MOVES DURING THE SAME BOUND Some elements or groups that have already moved this bound can make a second or subsequent tactical move if there are enough PIPs and only if this does not start or go within 1 BW of enemy (unless while moving along a road) and is entirely by:- (see also figure 5) (a) Light Horse or mounted infantry; and making a second or third move that is entirely in good going. (b) Psiloi making a second move either in their side’s first bound of the game, or if every element starts entirely in good going and ends at least partially in bad or rough going. (c) Troops moving along a road if making a second or subsequent move.
I can find no exceptions to this anywhere in the rules.
Note however that it is possible for an element to start the bound off-road, make a tactical move onto a road, then make a subsequent move along that road.
DBA is a positional set of rules, where the location and orientation of our elements tells us their current situation (in other words, elements have no memory of how they got to where they are, just that they are there).
So providing the element starts the subsequent move on a road, they can use it. Likewise, LH could start a bound in rough or bad going, make a tactical move into good going, and since at the start of the subsequent move they are in good going, they too can make a subsequent move.
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Post by paddy649 on Dec 15, 2020 20:11:39 GMT
So a column of 2 LH could make 2 moves across GG, finish on a road and them make a 3rd move entirely along the road and into contact? Nice!
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Post by richard4th on Dec 15, 2020 20:14:37 GMT
I have now noticed a flaw in my cunning plan!
Steppe = no road.
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Post by stevie on Dec 15, 2020 21:18:51 GMT
So a column of 2 LH could make 2 moves across GG, finish on a road and them make a 3rd move entirely along the road and into contact? Nice! Actually Paddy, the situation is even better than that. Technically, LH could do the following:- 1) start in rough/bad going and make a tactical move to good going. 2) being in good going, then take two subsequent moves. 3) lastly, if they end on a road, then make unlimited road moves (depending upon PIPs). (road moves are not limited to just two tactical moves)The “Subsequent Moves” section does not say “...and if entirely that bound by:-” It just says the subsequent moves must be entirely in good going, or on a road.
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Post by timurilank on Dec 15, 2020 21:20:42 GMT
I have now noticed a flaw in my cunning plan!
Steppe = no road.
Correct and the invader may choose any one of the four base edges as his own.
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Post by paulhannah on Dec 16, 2020 15:26:35 GMT
... and only if this does not start or go within 1 BW of enemy (unless while moving along a road)...
Consider also that sometimes the most effective use of LH is not to go all the way into contact, but simply to place (pin) enemy elements in their Threat Zone. The rule Stevie cited above lets you do just that.
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Post by stevie on Dec 16, 2020 18:06:27 GMT
Ha!...here is another little trick for you Paul:- 1) a LH element starts in a Threat Zone, pinning an enemy. 2) it moves straight backwards out of that TZ using its entire move. (note: “using its entire move”, not its entire bound) 3) since it's no longer in a TZ, it can now make two subsequent moves. 4) and if it ends up on a road, it can make another subsequent road move to enter another Threat Zone to pin another enemy element. ...and all this in a single bound! (if it has the PIP’s of course)
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Post by martin on Dec 16, 2020 18:42:04 GMT
Ha!...here is another little trick for you Paul:- 1) a LH element starts in a Threat Zone, pinning an enemy. 2) it moves straight backwards out of that TZ using its entire move. (note: “using its entire move”, not its entire bound) 3) since it's no longer in a TZ, it can now make two subsequent moves. 4) and if it ends up on a road, it can make another subsequent road move to enter another Threat Zone to pin another enemy element. ...and all this in a single bound! (if it has the PIP’s of course) Why, in 2), does the LH have to move its full move distance? Or did I misread?
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Post by goragrad on Dec 16, 2020 19:27:44 GMT
Why, in 2), does the LH have to move its full move distance? Or did I misread? Ave martin - as I understand that rule, the LH element may use some or all of its move distance. The stipulation is that however far it moves that the move is restricted to being to a point directly to the elements original rear. No turns or other deviation in direction are allowed. Hopefully that is correct and clearer than mud...
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Post by stevie on Dec 16, 2020 19:53:36 GMT
What Goragrad said. Perhaps I should have been clearer and used the exact same DBA wording:- “2) moves straight back to its own rear for the entire move to leave the TZ.”
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Post by jim1973 on Dec 17, 2020 2:21:47 GMT
Other players clearly roll much higher PIP scores than I do to make their LH dance like that!😉
Jim
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Post by stevie on Dec 17, 2020 11:24:44 GMT
You’re right Jim. LH only get to use their subsequent move ability if they are luckier (i.e. PIP roll luckier) than their opponent. That’s why Paddy came up with the rather ingenious ‘LH only pays ½ a PIP to move’ House Rule (see:- fanaticus.boards.net/post/25578/ ). With this the LH can dance around their enemies, as the historical accounts said they did, and they become far more useful and more of a threat than the luck dependent wimps they are at the moment.
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Post by stevie on Dec 17, 2020 12:23:01 GMT
Another good way for defenders to use roads is as a delaying tactic on one wing. As the first road move each bound costs no PIPs, have something relatively fast on the road. This can then make one move down the road at no cost, OR, If threatened, zip backwards for one move along the road to safety, again at no cost.
The enemy can’t ignore them, as they might get behind their battleline or reach their camp. So your opponent either must chase them, wasting precious PIPs, or at least counter them, keeping some of their elements out of the main battle.
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Of course, with all this talk about zipping up or down roads, it would be prudent to look at ways of preventing this behaviour.
And the best way to do this is not to have your own elements actually on the road, where your opponent could use road moves to charge into them, but have friendly troops near the road with their Threat Zones covering it. Elements making road moves must stay on the road, and they will be halted when they enter your Threat Zone.
Cities and occupied Forts exert Threat Zones, so defenders would be wise to have their roads placed so they pass near these, allowing you to use the road as you wish but denying your opponent the same luxury.
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