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Post by paddy649 on Nov 12, 2020 12:19:17 GMT
The III/40c Viking Leidang army list contains the phrase “6 x boendr (4Bd or in Finland 3Ax)”. Does this mean “4Bd/3Ax” or “4Bd or 3Ax?”
On the face of it it uses the word or which implies 4Bd or 3Ax (i.e. any mixture) but you can’t be part in Finland and part outside can you? Thus it also seems to be saying 4Bd/3Ax (i.e. either not both.)
So can someone remind me whether or in the text of an army list means “or” as on page 31 (which is equivalent to the maths operator AND) OR whether it means “/“ (which is equivalent to the maths operator XOR.)
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Post by scottmc94 on Nov 12, 2020 14:00:18 GMT
I agree with the either not both. I think the the conditional "or in Finland" is the key.
Scott
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Post by timurilank on Nov 12, 2020 14:33:17 GMT
Paddy649,
I read this also as 6 x Finns (3Ax) for Swedish Leidang armies fighting in Finland or 6 x 4Bd if
fighting elsewhere. This option would make an interesting opponent for the Rus.
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Post by Les1964 on Oct 29, 2023 16:08:14 GMT
Anyone else have any thoughts on this , is it all or none , or a mix in Finland ?
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Post by paddy649 on Oct 29, 2023 17:03:33 GMT
I built both options - I normally play 6 x 4Bd as it’s stronger but not sure anyone would complain if you used a mix.
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Post by diades on Oct 29, 2023 17:24:53 GMT
The III/40c Viking Leidang army list contains the phrase “6 x boendr (4Bd or in Finland 3Ax)”. Does this mean “4Bd/3Ax” or “4Bd or 3Ax?” On the face of it it uses the word or which implies 4Bd or 3Ax (i.e. any mixture) but you can’t be part in Finland and part outside can you? Thus it also seems to be saying 4Bd/3Ax (i.e. either not both.) So can someone remind me whether or in the text of an army list means “or” as on page 31 (which is equivalent to the maths operator AND) OR whether it means “/“ (which is equivalent to the maths operator XOR.) “Or between 2 codes or prefix numbers directs that any mixture of those elements can be used.” I think the intent is that 6 x 4Bd are used, unless the army is in Finland, where any combination of 4Bd and 3Ax may be used… |
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Post by Brian Ború on Oct 29, 2023 17:34:17 GMT
The III/40c Viking Leidang army list contains the phrase “6 x boendr (4Bd or in Finland 3Ax)”. Does this mean “4Bd/3Ax” or “4Bd or 3Ax?” On the face of it it uses the word or which implies 4Bd or 3Ax (i.e. any mixture) but you can’t be part in Finland and part outside can you? Thus it also seems to be saying 4Bd/3Ax (i.e. either not both.) So can someone remind me whether or in the text of an army list means “or” as on page 31 (which is equivalent to the maths operator AND) OR whether it means “/“ (which is equivalent to the maths operator XOR.) “Or between 2 codes or prefix numbers directs that any mixture of those elements can be used.” I think the intent is that 6 x 4Bd are used, unless the army is in Finland, where any combination of 4Bd and 3Ax may be used… I think you hit the nail on the head. |
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Post by Les1964 on Oct 29, 2023 19:48:32 GMT
The III/40c Viking Leidang army list contains the phrase “6 x boendr (4Bd or in Finland 3Ax)”. Does this mean “4Bd/3Ax” or “4Bd or 3Ax?” On the face of it it uses the word or which implies 4Bd or 3Ax (i.e. any mixture) but you can’t be part in Finland and part outside can you? Thus it also seems to be saying 4Bd/3Ax (i.e. either not both.) So can someone remind me whether or in the text of an army list means “or” as on page 31 (which is equivalent to the maths operator AND) OR whether it means “/“ (which is equivalent to the maths operator XOR.) “Or between 2 codes or prefix numbers directs that any mixture of those elements can be used.” I think the intent is that 6 x 4Bd are used, unless the army is in Finland, where any combination of 4Bd and 3Ax may be used… Maybe it would have been better like this , 6 x boendr (4Bd or in Finland 4Bd or 3Ax) , if they can be mixed in Finland ? |
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Post by Haardrada on Oct 30, 2023 1:55:24 GMT
The III/40c Viking Leidang army list contains the phrase “6 x boendr (4Bd or in Finland 3Ax)”. Does this mean “4Bd/3Ax” or “4Bd or 3Ax?” On the face of it it uses the word or which implies 4Bd or 3Ax (i.e. any mixture) but you can’t be part in Finland and part outside can you? Thus it also seems to be saying 4Bd/3Ax (i.e. either not both.) So can someone remind me whether or in the text of an army list means “or” as on page 31 (which is equivalent to the maths operator AND) OR whether it means “/“ (which is equivalent to the maths operator XOR.) For my 6 Penneth I would say that since the "or" does not appear between codes the difference is stated in the brackets and should be as read ....4Bd or in Finland 3Ax...this IMHO denotes Leidang raised in Finland are specifically 3Ax....so all 6 elements are of the same type depending on the choice of origin by the player or in a Campaign where troops(boendr) are raised in Finland. The author could also imply that the boendr could not fight as 4Bd in Finland and had to adopt a looser formation. |
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Post by gonatas on Oct 30, 2023 8:58:35 GMT
A tricky one.
For my ha'pence worth though I would agree with Haardrada.
Shame because two or three 3Ax would be really handy.
I guess it will be down to organisers to rule on a comp by comp basis.
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Post by Haardrada on Oct 30, 2023 9:50:59 GMT
Other reasons for the 3Ax classification rather than 3Bd could be that the Finns(and Estonians) didn't bury as many artifacts with their dead,so the classic sword and axe combination that allowed the classification of troops as Bd isn't evident. Also there is evidence that the Vikings settled into Finland and Estonia and blended with the native populations,but the natives did not participate in Expeditions so may not have been as well equipped as the riving Norse warriors....perhaps the Finns became very similar to the Rus with a ruling Norse aristocracy and native Slav boendr class,but not developing the long spear tactics? Only Phil and those involved in the rule writing can truly know the reasons for the exception in the list. www.britannica.com/place/Finland/Earliest-peoples |
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Post by timurilank on Oct 30, 2023 11:36:44 GMT
Paddy649, I read this also as 6 x Finns (3Ax) for Swedish Leidang armies fighting in Finland or 6 x 4Bd if fighting elsewhere. This option would make an interesting opponent for the Rus. Researching the later medieval period, Ostland (Finland) was often referred to as a wilderness with a few areas along its Baltic coast evolving into commercial centres. As mentioned by Haardrada, close formation troops would be hindered in a land full of thick forests, streams and lakes, moving 4Bd troops to adapt a loose formation 3Ax to fight the local tribes. Recommend Late Medieval Sweden in Slingshot 197 by Kent Hagglund and Olavinlinna Castle in Finland, Slingshot 14 by Barry Reilly. |
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Post by davidjconstable on Oct 30, 2023 11:57:02 GMT
Being an oldie (76) I was taught English English, not American English.
I would probably read this as P.B. would have written it, therefore you use 4Bd, the word OR follows, so in Finland you use 3Ax.
So an attacker and defender in Finland uses 3Ax, outside Finland you use 4Bd.
David Constable
P.S. - As a matter of interest I use a circa 1905 dictionary (yes over 100 years old).
The definition of "OR" is - "A particle that marks an alternative, and frequently corresponds with either and whether."
Note the use of the word alternative, either can be used if there are only two choices, but by itself it does not allow both unless it is further qualified as such.
When reading P.B. rules you need to throw away your American dictionaries and get a really good English English dictionary.
P.S. to P.S. - As Websters says alternative as well, should the use of the word "OR" be dropped. It would make the army list longer, but stop other problems.
So the Leidang boendr become "6x4Bd unless the army is in Finland, in Finland both attacker and defender use 6x3Ax."
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