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Post by snowcat on Oct 23, 2020 3:41:19 GMT
Why do 3Kn recoil 4Kn on ties?
Is it the crash and bash vs the steady trot? Or something else?
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Post by arnopov on Oct 23, 2020 8:41:03 GMT
Cosmic Balance
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Post by stevie on Oct 23, 2020 10:14:45 GMT
Actually I think it has something to do with the performance of 3Kn and 4Kn during the Crusades. The Byzantine princess Anna Comnena (1083 to 1153) mentions in her history that ‘Frankish’ Knights “could charge through the very walls of Constantinople”. Obviously an exaggeration, but she is trying to convey the superiority of the Western Knights to her own ponderous heavy Byzantine Cataphracts.
Writing a set of Ancient Wargaming rules is like trying to assemble a jigsaw puzzle with many of the pieces missing, so we would be fools to ignore any juicy little titbits like this that give us insight into how those ancient warriors actually did behave and perform.
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Oct 23, 2020 12:07:30 GMT
Actually I think it has something to do with the performance of 3Kn and 4Kn during the Crusades. The Byzantine princess Anna Comnena (1083 to 1153) mentions in her history that ‘Frankish’ Knights “could charge through the very walls of Constantinople”. Obviously an exaggeration, but she is trying to convey the superiority of the Western Knights to her own ponderous heavy Byzantine Cataphracts. Writing a set of Ancient Wargaming rules is like trying to assemble a jigsaw puzzle with many of the pieces missing, so we would be fools to ignore any juicy little titbits like this that give us insight into how those ancient warriors actually did behave and perform. How odd then that the Byzantines do not have any 4Kn units after 1042 according to the Book of Phil.
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Post by snowcat on Oct 23, 2020 12:35:41 GMT
The next time you ask a question - and no I won't hold my breath - the answer is '42'.
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Post by snowcat on Oct 23, 2020 12:41:09 GMT
Actually I think it has something to do with the performance of 3Kn and 4Kn during the Crusades. The Byzantine princess Anna Comnena (1083 to 1153) mentions in her history that ‘Frankish’ Knights “could charge through the very walls of Constantinople”. Obviously an exaggeration, but she is trying to convey the superiority of the Western Knights to her own ponderous heavy Byzantine Cataphracts. Writing a set of Ancient Wargaming rules is like trying to assemble a jigsaw puzzle with many of the pieces missing, so we would be fools to ignore any juicy little titbits like this that give us insight into how those ancient warriors actually did behave and perform. OK, that's possibly a decent tidbit. Do we know of any others? Does anyone know the actual reason why Phil gave 3Kn the edge over 4Kn in combat?
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Post by stevie on Oct 23, 2020 13:23:07 GMT
How odd then that the Byzantines do not have any 4Kn units after 1042 according to the Book of Phil. All I can say Tony is “I didn’t write the army lists”. “The native kataphraktoi were to be found in the imperial oikos, some imperial guards units and the personal guards of generals, but the largest numbers were found within the provincial tagmata. The level of military effectiveness, especially the quality of the armour and mount, of the individual provincial kataphraktos probably varied considerably, as both John II and Manuel I are recorded as employing formations of “picked lancers” who were taken from their parent units and combined. This approach may have been adopted in order to re-create the concentration of very effective heavy cavalry represented by the Imperial Tagmata of former times. The kataphraktoi were the most heavily armoured type of Byzantine soldier and a wealthy kataphraktos could be very well armoured. The Alexiad relates that when the emperor Alexios was simultaneously thrust at from both flanks by lance wielding Norman knights his armour was so effective that he suffered no serious injury. In the reign of Alexios I (1081-1118) the Byzantine kataphraktoi proved to be unable to withstand the charge of Norman knights, and Alexios, in his later campaigns, was forced to use stratagems which were aimed at avoiding the exposure of his heavy cavalry to such a charge. Contemporary Byzantine armour was probably more effective than that of Western Europe therefore reasons other than a deficit in armour protection must be sought for the poor performance of the Byzantine cavalry. It is probable that the Byzantine heavy cavalry traditionally made charges at relatively slow speed, certainly the deep wedge formations described in Nikephoros II Phokas’ day would have been impossible to deploy at anything faster than a round trot. In the course of the late 11th century the Normans, and other Westerners, evolved a disciplined charge at high speed which developed great impetus, and it is this which outclassed the Byzantines. The role of the couched lance technique, and the connected development of the high-cantled war saddle, in this process is obscure but may have had considerable influence.”(Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_army_(Komnenian_era)#Cavalry )
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Post by arnopov on Oct 23, 2020 13:41:19 GMT
The next time you ask a question - and no I won't hold my breath - the answer is '42'.
No, no, seriously! To compensate from the advantage of not pursuing.
It can be traced partially to DBM, but with different mechanism.
"Exception (X): Completely armoured shieldless cataphracts wielding long kontos two-handed on fully armoured horses and charging in close formation, such as Parthian or Sassanid cataphracts. They are treated as (S) knights when shot at by bowmen or naval, or in close combat to their front against light horse, spears, pikes, or bowmen, as (I) knights in close combat to their front against knights except (X), expendables or warband, otherwise as (O) knights. They cannot claim rear support."
Which itself probably can be traced to earlier subtly different mechanisms in earlier WRG stuff ...
There is a lot of information degradation going on!
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